G.H.
Not too impressive advantage (52% comparing to 48%)... makes you wonder why so many American people sees nothing bad in gay marriages... oh well, even Lisa wanted them to exist once. Still, 2% is not "majority" at all IMHO. *can't resist remembering Soviet Union and its elections/public votings always having 99,99% results - that's the majority! *

Anyway, if California was the only state and even there g.m. were banned again, I really doubt Obama will ever raise that question during his presidentship. He'd better think about Iraq...

G.H.
Nope, it's not. And life doesn't always go like dictionaries say 2% is a very small value, it's on the boundary of statistical error. Such a small difference doesn't show the actual state of affairs - someone didn't vote, someone wasn't sure etc, and we have 2% difference. But with the same possibility the same difference could be on the opposing side... so although I don't support them, I can understand why they protest now.

You really are a fucking moron arnt you? You want to deny people basic human rights just so you can feel good about keeping those uppity queers in their place. You are a despicable human being.The majority can go fuck itself and the court should force this through.

Nope.

You have to see it from my point of view - I don't believe homosexuality is the right way to go. Not saying I want to discriminate against gay people, but I don't support their lifestyle. This is where the whole bigotry issue comes in, and this really ticks me off - I've had people calling me all sorts of terrible names (mostly after Prop 8 passed), people are comparing this to the civil rights movement of African Americans and women's rights. It's really nothing like that at all. People don't understand that for gays to be joined in a civil union, they get the exact same rights as two married people - this whole "legalize gay marriage" fight is only for the title of marriage.

Now you're asking well why not just let them have the title and be done with it? Well, because marriage is, like it or not, a religious ceremony that has been kept between a man and a woman for as long as our constitution has been in place. Look at it this way - if I applied for the NHS club at my school (National Honor Society), I would be rejected. Why? Because my GPA (grade point average) is too low to qualify for their standards. I could get upset and throw a fit that they're discriminating against people with a lower GPA, but in reality they aren't - those are just the standards you have to meet to participate in their club. As for marriage, it's the same thing - homosexuals don't meet the qualifications for a Christian ceremony (and before you think about denying its religious association, why then do you need a minister to marry two people?).

It's all a moot point anyway - I believe homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says it's wrong. It's pretty explicit about that too, so don't try to argue that point. Even if I was a minority out here I wouldn't change my views. And it's not discrimination either.

Vanguard20
Looks like we haven't learned anything, have we?

Someone who supports the corrupt government in Russia has no business lecturing anyone about democracy.

Sorry but I must express what I thought of that quote....


Other than that I won't get involved, just bid my farewells to Vanguard as I'm off on a trip for a while tomorrow,
I just feel there is no point arguing over these things in this thread anyway, it WAS about the recent election, Obama won, the end ^_^ Which is kinda just the beginning

Vanguard20
I'm not going to waste my time bickering with you, but rest assured, I will be praying for you.

G.H.
To me, treating gays in a different way looks like, say, treating black people differently. When Hitler was ruling the Germany, jews couldn't have legal marriages - just like gays in U.S. now. Yes, marriage is a religious ceremony. But it's also an official thing too, for example in some places unmarried people cannot adopt kids. Social minorities should decide their fate themselves, not the whole society, because the rest of the society just wouldn't understand them and their needs. In this situation your Prop 8 result sounds like "Whoa, almost half of people here are gays or those who support them, but we still won't give them rights just because" which is kinda funny. You say there are rules that everyone should respect. Okay, but Hitler also made those rules, and people had to respect them, or they got killed, the same was in U.S. before the Civil war. There was plenty of rules segregating people! We always should understand what kind of rules make sense and what not.

Actually - you really do not choose your sexual orientation - it is in you, you are born with it! Your feelings, your hormones, your thoughts... all that is something you can NOT change without extreme force and mental damage. Isn?t that clear to you? Do you have a special sexual oriantation, a penchant, or shall I say, a fetish? You cannot control that, its how you are. If you like for example thin, black women with blond hair and you see at the beach, you will get this tingling - but when you see a fat guy, you surely will not get it. So this shows your sexual orientation. You cannot choose it.
I want to see you turn into a gay man and have a relation with one. You probably will not be able to do so without going crazy and feeling absolutely wrong - and that is the point of view of the poor homosexuals who are forced to live a life that is beyond their nature.
Get the point, bible-boy?

G.H., I can understand your sight of view, although I cannot sanction it. Do you not guess that your mind is too unilateral. I have the feeling that you are too seriously with the bible. I know lots of those has its' entitlement, but there's also lots of what should be considered with care. Than every religion has a potential to be exploited for individual interests.
CargoOfDarkness is right if he says that sodomites can't choose, from his point of view, but from G.H.s' (conservative) point of view they choose against the bible, which is understandable in that case.
But now another question is raising, namely what's with cristian sodomites, I think you can't permit them to be christian because of their sodomite interests. Mercifulness and permissiveness which is also called catholicity are some of the essential elements of christian religion. Didn't Jesus says once something like: "The laws shouldn't be against humans but they should be pro humans" as far as I can remember on my religion tuition.

I am not anti-Christian, but I would consider myself as being rather liberal indeed. And again, I beg you to see the difference - you said homosexuality is a sin, but I say that it's your belief/conviction/moral/opinion that homosexuality is a sin. While I have to agree that homosexuality is probably not what nature intended in the first place (being able to reproduce ourselves), I will not condemn it as long as no harm is done. This is what tolerance is all about.

I kinda agree with GH about the gay marrage thing, I think you need to see a different perspective to it;

Marrage is a whole hearted, full on religious ceremony that has been passed on from generation to generation and has become so normal that, even athiests get married. The way it seems to me, christianity isnt completely fond of homosexuality, and therefore wont marry two gay people. And I dont think its fair to force a religion thats survived two thousand years to change its rules 'or else'.

I personaly think there should be two kinds of marrage... kinda a religious one and non-religious one, both of which comply with the system; i.e. the bonding of partners. That way, gay marrage is possible and wont upset the religions.

As for gay-religious people, maybe thats another topic.

*tosses hat into the ring*

Here's my take: marriage is an outdated, archaic ceremony with few real repercussions in today's society. Take, for example, the recent (well, not so much anymore) divorce trends. If marriage is such a sacred institution, then why is it so easy to escape?

Personally, a commitment is a commitment no matter who authorizes it. It is up to you and the person who you make it with to uphold what you agree to, because, in the end, you are the only ones who have any say in the matter and can make it work.

I can only argue: if it makes them happy, what right does the government have to deny it?

I respect your opinion on the matter, GH. You are perfectly within your rights to believe and practice whatever you choose. It won't impact me in the end.

Since the discussion has steered from the original political based topid, i took the liberty of splitting the thread. Sorry for any confusion this might have brought

about the bible and the words of Christ.... , Only exist a law, live and love at our  brothers, nothing more, I am a active catholic (in special in the night of christmas in the streets ), and to me God exist (he can understand our heart and real desires), every human law, every word in a holy book, are words of humans , the church too, ... and we are't perfects...

the real force  and energy of a religion is the act and the help with other human,... NOt the words in a book... Jehovah and in special Jesus live in the face and in the spirit of the people that need help, in the childs with hungry and in war, in the blood of the innocent...

the words and the dogmas of a church or relegion are only words... the love can exist in any side, place or orientation, because this born in the heart,.... remember that the humans have rules to every act in this life, but with the evolution is neccesary apply changes.... if two spirits can found the love, is necesary live in peace.. because the future live in our hands, and the humans rules are only words in a document or book... ..."try find our own happiness"