Ok, be honest with this

I don't mean the times were you didn't share her ideas BUT she was honest, or the times where you disagreed with her BUT she was good-hearted,or where she was totally in the wrong BUT she was so cute... so to justify her actions or sayings:
I mean the times were you really were angry at her, or disappointed in her without "but", where you thought she deserved to be punished for something.

What do you say, can you all be honest enough to find such an "uneasy" thing to bear, for a Lisafan? I have some, but i'll wait to see what comes up, even because i haven't got enough time to write them at work.

This was not so long ago. When I saw the episode 'Love Springfieldian Style' she has shown there as a drug (or chocolate) addict. And such view disappointed me to the bone... Man, I hate this episode now. What was really disappointing is her behaviour. She acted as if all goes right. And using the drugs is normal, as well as overfree relations. Maybe it's not the correct case. I'll try to remember something later.

Kasper
You're right, that's from the nineteenth season, the episode dedicated to Saint Valentine's day. You said Lisa from late season is not herself. I can agree with it at certain degree. But what I think that the show still goes forward. Everything needs a progress, and we, fans, can't stand forever on positions of old episodes. Lisa gets changed and it's need to understand it correctly. But still keeping passion to her. The creators of the show - they simply can't do careless work, at least now, after all this time. And the last episode with Lisa breathed secondhand smoke (see the 'Smoke on the Daughter') has it's own important idea. While in 'Love Springfieldian Style' Lisa has been shown simply degrading... a drug-girl who simply needs to communicate with someone and doesn't need any self-development. All her wishes and dreams was replaced and gone.

Yggdrasill - It wasn't really Lisa. It was just Bart telling a story, and the writers used Lisa to represent the character Bart was telling in his story. So it's really Nancy Spungen. One should never mix Lisa herself with the characters she is used to portray.

Remove that link.

I dunno what the problem is though... I might have to pull down LTBQ and then restore it once I've gone through everything.

Well, you went a bit off topic here.

Forget the writers, there exist no writers in this thought i'm making up We can't accept and praise Lisa for beign a real little girl when she's cute and pretty and gentle and blame on the writers when she's annoying or un-cute. Thats quite partial thinking

Just think about Lisa and her behaviour (not "fake lisas as in fantasies and such"), and try to remember if there were times where you were angry at her for her behaviour, without blaming it on the writers or trying to justify her.

Here, i'll give my examples:

1) In Lisa the Vegetarian, when she gets the little tractor and brings away the barbecue pig from Homer's party. I don't care if vegetarianism is the way, but Lisa there acted just WAY too selfishly, she deliberatedly ruin her father's party because of her beliefs. Yes i know, in the end she saw her ways, but still this doesn't excuse her from her very bad action, that was really unexpected from her.

2) In Lisa the Skeptic, when she replies to Marge, in a very annoying way "no mom, *i* feel sorry for *you*". Here we see again the annoying holier than thou Lisa; i usually don't care, because she is like that to people that, frankly, deserve it. But not her mom! Marge really didn't deserve to be treated like that, and i admire her for not slapping Lisa in that occasion... Marge is probably the onl person of the family that understands Lisa and really appreciates her for what she is, and Lisa shouldn't have disrespected her in that way, no matter her beliefs. Again, i nthe end of the episode, they made up but still this doesnt took away the fact that Lisa behaved very badly.

3) Well, this one is really little but...
LISA: ... just get me the friggin' toy.
I forgot what episode that's from.

So, anymore?

Well duh, Gazmanafc. Thanks for the explanation, i'm sure we all here thought Lisa was actually real and living.
[sarcasm detector explodes]
The thread is, i think, crystal clear. You just need to abstract yourself a bit, like roleplaying. It's nothing exceptional really... but i'll try to make it even clearer: just think if the actions depicted in the show were done by a real little girl like Lisa, would them anger you?

If you can't do it and can't think of Lisa being but a bunch of lines in a script, then this thread isn't just cut for you.

What?

Are you serious? Than what is *your* point being here anyway? Of cause Lisa is more for us than just a coloured bunch of pixel and a line in a script. For us she is more real... she is real in our heart and our mind... She is an attetude for life... she is a idol... and that has nothing to do with our sense of reality.
And yes, you can be angry with Lisa! It?s the same as you can be happy about her or feel sorry for her. Same as you can feel bad or good about a character in a book or in a movie. That is what reading, watching and being fan of some "imaginary" person is about...

Maybe it's you who doesn't understand... Since you dont seem to be grasping what I'm saying either.

1. Yes, I have
2. No.

And that matters because...?

Why should I? It's perfectly legitimate going in this one.

I talked to a friend about the issue here's the log:

It is true that Lisa is not real, can't think of her own, and so on. It's just some "fat guy with a beard" who came up with the story and made the animators make moving pictures of it.

I believe there are two types of stories: One where the fat guy comes up with a random story and uses a random character in the show for a random part. An example would be any of the "three short stories" episodes. In these episodes the characters' ways and beliefs rarely are the same as we are used to. The other type of story is when the fat guy takes one or several of the characters and puts them into a situation thinking "How would he/she/them react to this?". An example would be "Lisa vs Bart vs Third Grade" or "Separate Vocations".

Of course, it's really not that simple, but that's somewhat how I categorise different episodes. This goes for all kinds of shows and movies.

Now, about fandom, it's very, very individualistic. Most people will not think of the fat guy with a beard at all. I certainly am not thinking of some fat guy while I'm watching a Simpsons episode, or any other show or movie for that matter. For us fans, the characters and their ways are important to us. Nobody can come to us and say "Think of her as what she is. A cartoon character". That is being plain rude to all of us.

I mean, come on. That's what it is all about, being a fan. I'm not a fan of the ones writing the stories. Sure, you could, but I'm not. I'm not a fan of Yeardley or any of the others that make the Simpsons voices. Sure, you could, but I'm not. I'm a Lisa fan, I think of her for what she is. A character.

As for what this topic was created for, Marco, I believe I've been angry at Lisa at some points, but not at that many occasions. Can't come up with any now, though, needs some thinking.

Cargo - There's no need to be a jerk.

I'm saying everything like it is. If you dont like it. Tough shit.

Oh, and make sense damn it.

Gazmanafc
Don't think I'm attaking you. But why do you think that the one, who does not have any "real" look on life is wothy of someone's pity? When people start thinking they even in a little part better than someone else only because they 'knew life' better - isn't it just an arrogance?

Gazmanafc
You left the most important part out of your message. Cargo's right, Lisa is an illustrated and voiced spirit. We care for her because we think there's something to this spirit.
We all realize that she doesn't exist in the real world, but we do react when we feel like a person with this kind of spirit is mistreated. It'll make us sad, because it's not fair. In this case we may feel angry with her for abandoning the principles that makes her special.  If you'd take your average egocentric and rude person, we wouldn't care much for such a spirit.

Go figure the continuation to the above out for yourself, either you see this or you don't. And either way is fine as long as it makes you happy. But again, I'll side with Cargo. If you can't feel for a person in a book, movie, TV series, perhaps not even in the real world seeing as how you constantly reject other peoples feelings... I feel sorry for you. You must've gone through some bad stuff, because people who've had a good life don't end up like that, people who've had a bad life usually don't end up like that. I've had a bad life, still do, and I've got asperger syndrome (which kinda cripples my ability to feel for other people), I still have some degree of understanding for other peoples feelings though. Don't bother defending this, I know that all I'm doing is laying out platitudes, that doesn't make it wrong though.

If you want to be a cynical, go on and be a cynical. A Lisa Simpson fan forum is probably the last place a cynical should be at though. Lisa and her admirers (us @ LTS) probably have/had some tough times, but we cling on to Lisa because we know life isn't really bad, and we care for other people.

...

Dagdamor, SimpReal, Gustavo (CCD now... yar!), Casper, Andreas, Black_raven, El_Barto, Suusje (where is this guy?), Yggdrasill, amateur_poet, GeorgeHarrison, Maggiecute, laguna sky, lizard_queen, Syke (where's this guy?), Empethree (and him?) brakusaetsya (sorry to whoever's missing :/), these are all people I've been seen posting around, and they are all great people. So life's a bitch, but they never stopped caring. Whatever.

*Edit: You got your last post up before I got mine up Gaz. None of us at LTS are interested in the technical level, if that was the case this place wouldn't have been created in the first place.

Gazmanafc
You can care for someone, even if you can't interact with the person. Actually, people often want to interact with other people because they do care about them. Shame we can't always do this. Also, I wouldn't exactly say I care for Lisa on a personal level. One might even say that all I care about is myself, since I've got my own interpretation of Lisa, just like everyone else who admires her. The reason we all see Lisa in kind of the same way is because the writers have laid out her basic character for us, we may however choose to interpret the character differently and adjust her to be more like what's going on inside our own heads. No one at LTS is in 100% agreement about how they see Lisa.
The reason we care about people in the real world is if these people have similarities with our own thoughts and values, it's a kind of connection. And one person can change the way another person thinks. So what I'm saying here is that ultimately, all we really care about is ourselves. We all do the things we do because we want to. It's called psychological egoism, and it's all just a waste of time to think about. Without our egoism, we wouldn't care about anything, we wouldn't do anything at all. Gustavo has at one or more points said things like "love is a mirror of yourself", sorry if I didn't phrase it quite as poetically as he did. The more we share peoples values, the more we like them, love is experienced when one person to a great extent shares the same values as the other person. (and as nature would have it, usually the person also has to be of the opposite sex... damn nature.)
Lisa's very shapeable since she's just an idea. Go figure out why people like her.

*Edit: Sorry, need to add that everything I express is how I look at it. No need to snap at me for being wrong, because I know that I'm not right about anything, only about how I feel.

Those three sentences really said it all.

I think there are lots of people out there, if not everybody, that has something they care about but they cannot interact with. Or, at least, the thing they care about hasn't got a mind of its own. Take for example plants, or anything or anyplace that has an emotional value. It's not the same thing, exactly, but same in the way its a lovable item. Most of us have an item or place we want to protect and things we don't want to change. Lisa is one of those "things", we care about what happens to her.

Being a fan of her is caring about her. If you don't care for her, that's fine. But don't take away our right to do so.