laguna sky
Thinking about joining the U.S. army? I don't know what to suggest, really. If we talked about soviet army, I'd definitely say no. If we talked about nowadays russian army, I'd still say no, it's almost as corrupted, although it slowly goes up now. But we're talking about american army... you know, I'd still say no. Being able to fly is beautiful, but bombing peaceful people is terrible, and who knows which kind of order you'll get once your country will decide to attack another place for the sake of strategical resources.

laguna sky
If you have principles in your life, this is very good, but if you're going to army, you should understand that you'll have to do what others say, and no-one will care about your principles, no matter where you'll serve. Decide by yourself, aiming someone's weapon at people is as bad as directly bombing them IMHO.

First of all you are not alone... Everyone is faced with this question at some point in their life. How old are you? If you are at the crossroads in your life, it is difficult but you will have to make a decision that is going to shape the rest of your life and your personality. Any path you pick will do that.

 I have to admit; when I read "armed forces" I cringed. My personal opinion is that as long as people make careers on shooting, guns and "defence", there will be murder and war in this world and patriotic excuses to do it.

As you said yourself, you are a creative person, but when you join the army, you will have to put that creativity aside, forget yourself for the sake of imaginary enemies. I don’t know you that well, but guys I have seen that joined the army are those that thought them holding a gun will make the world a better place. They just turn into numbers in my eyes, one more kid that wants a fast formula to become a man.

But this is the pacifist in me speaking. No one can change your decision. Just don’t let others push you into it, whether it is the government or your loved ones. Many people have sacrificed their happiness for both, but in the end you are your own person and YOU have to live with everything you do.

I personally think that the biggest battle is to follow your own dream through life. So the question is, is a career in the army really your dream or just a safe solution?

I hope you make the right choice for yourself. 



The Road Not Taken

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth.

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same.

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.


R. Frost

Put aside the fact that i, when my time came, choosed for non-military service (it was an obligatory choice, so i had to take it. besides it was in the time of 911 and global terrorism fear so my choice was very influenced), i think that the moral aspects of the questions are surely important, but let's face it: morals only don't put food on our plate.

You must put basically the pros and cons of a military life on a balance, and see where it hangs... and of course only you can give a specific weight to each of them: it seems trite but no one here but yo ucan give the right weight to these things... for example i couldn't ever "grade" your will to fly, as i couldn't grade the strenghth of your morals.

Military Career is surely an economic advantageous choice of job. It offers great possibilities of carreer advancing in general, ig you're willing to work hard for it. Not many jobs can offer this. Of course, it can offer you satisfactions depending on your moral inclinationss, are you a patriotic? If you want to go to army just cause you like to fly, i'm afraid it won't be really what you expect, unless maybe you turn out to be an ace. I am sure that every kind of military career puts a very hard strain on the shoulders of people, especially starting people: it's never a walk in the park.
Of the moral implication of the choice people here has already talked a lot so i'm going to overstep those
Another thing that is important is predictions on the future: if a war breaks over, of course you'll be in first line. And you'll be asked to fight, regardless of the people you will fight, your life will be at stake, and trust me, to the people you will be given orders from, you'll be nothing but a number. If, however, things will stay calm, after a period of initial struggle (that can be short or long as you said), it could be smooth sailing, and a lot of other options could be opened to you.

It's not to evade my responsibilities, but i cannot suggest you what to do. As much as i know you, i doubt i'll ever know you enough to say that. I'll just say that watever choice you want to take, you must think it over very thoughly.

Having done a small smattering of service time I may as well throw my two cents in. Bear in mind I'm over on the other side of the pond in good old britannia, so take nothing here as gospel.

I'd say it's a life of extremes. There are really shitty bits - and I mean *exceptionally* shitty bits. You'll be amazed just how much you'll miss simple things, like knowing you can go home in the evening. And this is before active service, where you work however much is necessary (at least you're not going submarines - under normal circumstance that can involve doing alternate on-duty/off-duty 6 hour shifts for several months at a time, punctuated by occasional calls of everyone to action stations of course...).

But there can also be some amazing bits. The people are probably a lot to do with that. Yes, there are some dicks. But them aside you'll form friendships with people that would take years to develop in civilian life. And being part of a group where everyone is pulling together to help everyone else is really quite a unique feeling, and contrasts markedly with the apathy you can encounter in most normal jobs. I dunno if you're in school or another job right now, but how many co-workers/students do you know who would willingly risk their own lives to keep you safe? In the military you'll be surrounded by them - to some degree or other it's pretty much standard. Think about that.


Be wary of seeing a short bootcamp session as a good thing. Even if it's short it's probably going to be just as tough, and you have to be prepared to throw yourself in rather than seeing it just as a necessity to be 'gotten over with' as quickly as possible. Don't go in thinking you can tread water and it'll all wash by.

Bear in mind that you may well end up living 24/7 pretty much on top of people, and won't necessarily have the space to go do things like this. For several months I had a bunk which meant that I was sleeping within 16 or so inches of five other people .

This is not a good thing in this job. In fact, if this is truly how you feel, I say you really consider joining very very carefully. Right now, having this opinion puts only yourself at risk - that's entirely your own right, and a morally defensible one I might add. In the armed forces however, people will expect you (in one form or another) to be covering their backs, and will do very risky things based on this assumption. If you honestly couldn't bring yourself to shoot back at someone who is trying to shoot them, then you're committing a breach of trust which may leave them all dead. And to me that is not moral. Think it over.



A number of people have brought up concerns from a pacifistic point of view. I can't say they're wrong; thousands of people have considered these questions over the years, and no clear conclusion has been achieved. Personally though, I disagree - humans as a race are not nice beasties, there will always be someone willing to take advantage of others by force, and therefore a means to counter that force always going to be a necessity. The alternative is to stand by and let it happen.


A few others have alluded to the question of whether killing someone is ever moral. Maybe not, but sadly I do believe it can be the lesser of two evils in some situations. Growing up in northern ireland, I'm very grateful for all the members of the armed forces who helped prevent the various republican / unionist organisation from carving it up completely into their own little fiefdoms. I'd say the majority of countries in the world have at some point or other been under the rule of / terrorised by a government/organisation that was acting in an utterly immoral way, and been glad that a group was willing to point guns back at them and say 'stop'.



If you can swing it with your recruiter, try and get on an acquaint course somewhere to get a taste of it all first hand. There really is no substitute.


And for the record, stamp all of the above with a firm IMHO. Other people have made good counterpoints here - I therefore deliberately focused on the side which was less well represented

I dont think anybody here can inform you quite as much as D.B. can. But I can try!

You have to see past the killing people and shooting 'terrorists' and things like that. Once you make it through training, you'll be mentaly prepared for it. The services change the way you think gradualy, and they're very good at it. Its definatly not a bad thing. If everyone was afraid of killing bad guys, none of us would be here.

The main thing about any services, is the training. Training training training, breifly intersperced by PT. Which is just training but where the instructers are slightly more pissed off than usual.

There are massive rewards however, such as a good pay check for little qualifications. Its an 'easy' route to start, but you either love it or hate it. A close friend had joined the army about a year ago, doing military police, and its the best decision he ever made. He has made many good friends, and has had a lot of good times, despite the constant discipline.
My brother also joined the army, but left because he hated it. Couldnt stand being away from everything he loved, which he only realised he loved when he left it behind.

The one thing that I know IS good about joining the services. Whether you stick to it, or leave it after 6 weeks, it opens your eyes. My brother, even though he didnt like it, is a lot more greatful having a reletivly bad job, but being able to see us everynight. But at the same time, my friend is also benefiting from being happy with his choice.

For the record, I wouldnt join. I dont have the discipline, and I have a very natural fear of early mornings...

lizard_queen
Not to say that I'm against a world of peace and love... but I'm going to go ahead and just say that it's never going to happen. You can have martyrs like M.L. King, Gandhi, even John Lennon to some degree try and teach us that violence is not the key, but you will never get it through people's heads. There will never be peace on earth.

In these dark days it's more effective to learn how to protect yourself. Mat's right; if people were afraid of fighting, a lot of things wouldn't have happened. Countries would never have gained their independence. Look at the U.S., Mexico, etc... As unfortunate as it may be, violence gets things done.

And a little piece of advice to you... it's better not to take this "Holier than thou" attitude when debating with someone.

lizard_queen
Pessimistic is one word for it. Another word is realistic. The human race cannot function as one because we all have different mentalities. And not everyone's mindset is that peace is the only way to go. There are people who revel in death and combat, and others who encourage those people. They will never change their mind, or go away. Always you will have people encouraging the world to use their brains instead of their fists, but it will never happen. Man's base nature contradicts these hopes.

I really admire you, LQ, for your postive attitude, and i agree that if everyone would think like you then maybe, the world as we know it would still stand a chance, and peace could surely be possible. When there's war, there can't be peace now, can it?

But, but... as hard as i try, i am on the pessimistic train like GH here, and i think the human species stands little chances for salvation. Too much time has passed and instead of becoming more aware and peaceful, the same wars keep on burning, just for different reasons. Maybe mine is just lazyness, a quick excuse to tell myself "meh... why try?", but i swear, it's hard to change from this.

So all the more LQ, i do admire your spirit. And no, i don't think you're being holier than thou.

Sorry for the Off topic, Laguna!

Thank you, SimpReal.

well I have to look at both ends of the spectrum Suus. Imagine that there are two circles that are separate from each other. One is labeled "money" the other is "Jobs I Like". In the real world Those two circles rarely overlap, for that matter I have never had a job that I liked that paid me what I wanted it to. I don't have the training for most jobs and sadly my current level of knowledge is shittytown for every job I look at.

Yes I do have 4 years of Cooking 6 years of drywall and construction and 6 years of electrical job experience, but does any one actually care. Hell no. At least in the Army, I would be able to have  more that I wanted. I will have money for school, I will be trained to do most of my schooling by the army, I will get a job I like and get paid incredible amounts of Dosh doing so.

In short, I will do what I love, be trained for it for free and will be able to continue my Work towards my Masters or my PHD (on the governments tab) and be able to have myself well taken care of for when I do decide to leave the service. Now not only am I having two circles overlap, I have three for four that will overlap and I come out the winner.

I have taken a lot of time to think about this. It was not spur of the moment. My family members (such as they are) have been trying to tell me of the advantages, I have only really begun to look into them within the last few weeks.

I have to look at both sides and one of them is gonna be really hard and the other is gonna be really hard. The question is, when I get done with either road, where will I end up? Will I be working for some dead end job with a boss I hate, or am i gonna be the kind of individual that will be able to be the boss? I think I know where I want to be.

{off the wall rant mode}

EDIT: Upon reading some posts that I apparently missed, or something, I have noticed that everyone is mostly concerned with the moral issue of possibly killing or hurting others. The issue of peace has come up numerous times also. I want to let you know that I can avoid doing so. I may sound crazy, but upon talking with numerous people in the field that I want to go into, they have said that they never even had to pick up their gun in defense. They were protected by the people who made it their job to shoot others, and tho I don't like the thought of having to constantly be in war, it is something that is (in my mind) needed for my continued existence. My philisophical state is somewhat the same as GH's. MY beliefs that there is a higher power (as so called) and it has been said that when peace is brought to the entire world, time for those who believe will end and we will be called upon to answer for our wrong doing. As long as there is a war going on, or even some people who fight over their different Ideas, then (barring I not get shot or run over) I will continue to live this life and enjoy the company of my few friends and family and my girl.
{/off the wall rant mode}

I posted something here, then thought it would be more appropriate in a PM. Sorry if this caused any confusion. 

Okay, it is time for me to post a few stats of my own here. I recently took the test for the army that tells me if I am capable to do the job I want. I am going for satellite tech dealing with signal and data analyzing. to be able to do said job I need to get a 50 on the main test and at least a 110 on the sub parts (dont ask me about the scoring, it is really confusing). So I opened to letter upon leaving the test station and looked at everything, I got an 83 on the main test and a 118 on the engineering and a 124 on the electronics part, along with all my other scores of all 10 sub parts being 120 or above.

needless to say I can do ANY job I want and I can get it guaranteed to me. I beat my own recruiter out by almost 20 points

Hey, well done man  . Have you definately decided to sign up yet then, or are you still wavering on that bit?