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Author Topic: Lisa and Bart: Sibling rivalry?  (Read 4763 times)
SimpReal
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« on: May 15, 2007, 19:55 »

After the topics about relations between Lisa and her mom, i'd like to see whay you all think about the alchemy present between Lisa and her older bratty brother, Bart.

At first i think it might look like the usual "good child-bad child" rivalry with some sappy scenes throwed in just for drama/moral power, but there are imo countless things in almost every episode (relating to these two kids) that suggest that there is something much bigger and deeper in the relations of Lisa and Bart. When they are a team, when they fight, when they contrast or when they make up. Those scenes are always so powerful in my opinon... especially in the first seasons where the characters were still new to me.

In the end, what do you think they relationship is more leaning towards?


or

?
P.S.: It kind of is a rethorical question Wink
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2007, 20:04 »

* GeorgeHarrison envies Bart in the second scene.

I think the whole relationship is mainly a brother and sister comradery, that even though they disagree and fight often, they have tender moments, too. And to find out which is the most powerful, all you have to do is look at what comes in the end. When Bart and Lisa get into a deep problem with one another, in the end they end up resolving things because of how they are related to each other... they're family, and with that blood relation comes a strong bond that is very, very hard to break Smile The episode "Lisa on Ice" is a perfect example of how these ties always win out in the end. Even though they were deeply resentful of one another, they finally realized that they were brother and sister.

As adults I believe that Bart and Lisa will turn out like almost every set of kids that had problems with sibling rivalry. In the end, all things pass, and only love will last. They will be able to laugh about the good times they had, and even the times they squabbled will seem humourous to them Smile
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Look at that hand, lying there
The room is dark, she shows no fear
I'm lying still, my eyes are wide
My heart is pumping, I'm still alive

I'm still awake against my will
What will it ever take
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2007, 04:40 »

* Dagdamor envies Bart in both scenes Embarrassed

Lisa loves her bro very much, I'm sure. The second framegrab proves that Tongue But I'm not sure what Bart feels towards Lisa - not in the particular scene, but in general. I would like to think that he also loves her as a sister, but there are so little proofs... Sad
Sometimes I think Lisa loves a boy that doesn't deserve her love.

P.S. Here was a topic about Lisa and Marge? How come I missed it? *scratches head*
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SimpReal
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2007, 08:25 »

Sometimes I think Lisa loves a boy that doesn't deserve her love.

Yes, this point is rather important... it has been shown many times that Lisa proves an honest affection towards her brother most of the times (ok ok, esxept for the "on a clear day..." episode), and she's often there to help him, save him, or help him make things better (Bart gets an F, Bart sells his soul).
I can't remember clearly the times Bart did the same for Lisa, if not for "making up" for an error like in the above episode where he was clearly at fault. So sometimes i wonder that this is not an even relationship: and the love Lisa proves for her brother tends to "cover up" for the lack of love coming from the other side.
If that makes any sense Tongue

P.S. Here was a topic about Lisa and Marge? How come I missed it? *scratches head*

Not one in specific but there was one where the thread went on about their relationship, let me check.

* SimpReal checks

Hey, You didn't even miss it Tongue http://www.lisa-simpson.net/topic/146.0
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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2007, 14:44 »

SimpReal
Dagdamor
I think the two of you may have a point. On one hand, we can see Bart and Lisa as both loving toward one another, but Lisa is the more mature one, so she knows when to show her affection and when to make things up. She's also a more caring person, which leads her into helping him... perhaps the reason why he doesn't show more care for Lisa is simply because he's too immature to yet realize what goes between them?

On the other, darker side, perhaps Bart doesn't care about Lisa at all. He's annoyed by his sister's superior intelligence and maturity and so plays childish pranks to make up for it, and is never really sorry about it... remember Bart vs. Australia? ("I'm good at fake apologies!") Is he faking an apology when he does so to Lisa? Or does he realize really what's going on?

There are reasons to support both points of view.
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Look at that hand, lying there
The room is dark, she shows no fear
I'm lying still, my eyes are wide
My heart is pumping, I'm still alive

I'm still awake against my will
What will it ever take
To still this burning in me?
janglewolf
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2007, 19:30 »

I'd say that there's good evidence that Bart cares about Lisa, I can think of a couple of good examples straight up:
In Separate Vocations Bart takes the blame for Lisa's theft of the teacher's editions, in this case he wasn't making up for anything.   Likewise, in 'Round Springfield when Bart uses his compensation money to buy Lisa the Bleeding Gums Murphy album, it's a rare selfless act from Bart so she must mean something to him!   There are other examples I'm sure.
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Dagdamor
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2007, 07:48 »

janglewolf
Hm, true, and both cases are very good examples.
I like the second one especially, because in the first one Bart would look really nasty to anyone if he didn't help her sister that moment. Rolls Eyes But in the 'Round Springfield... he didn't just help her sister, he did the thing Lisa needed the most (and I doubt she told him about that album before), so he made a very good guess.
I just wonder, how that "Sax on the Beach" album could get in the Android's Dungeon?

*cough* By the way, about the screenshots Marco posted in the first message...
I have a weird crazy idea concerning them, I can post it if you're not afraid. Twisted
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2007, 17:06 »

Quote
*cough* By the way, about the screenshots Marco posted in the first message...
I have a weird crazy idea concerning them, I can post it if you're not afraid.

OK by me.
*janglewolf prepares himself to freak out...*  Tongue
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2007, 17:58 »

I have a weird crazy idea concerning them, I can post it if you're not afraid. Twisted

Yes, please go ahead. I'm sure it'll provoke more discussion Wink
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Look at that hand, lying there
The room is dark, she shows no fear
I'm lying still, my eyes are wide
My heart is pumping, I'm still alive

I'm still awake against my will
What will it ever take
To still this burning in me?
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2007, 20:57 »

This better be good! *cracks banuckles*  Twisted
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2007, 04:01 »

*LOL* at Marco Big Grin

Okay, hopefully it's not as crazy... first of all, look at the first screenshot and remember the scene. Bart isn't actually fighting with Lisa there, he's defending himself like he understands he did something bad and has to pay for that now. His behavior is not natural. The preceding moment, when Bart and Lisa were both pulling Lisa's creation, also looked strange to me. He couldn't let that thing go the same moment Lisa did. He threw it into the fireplace by purpose.

Now look at the second scene... he's smiling, his eyes are closed... that lucky ratboy is happy! He's on the cloud nine right now, don't you think so? He looks to me like someone who had an evil plan and it worked as expected. Twisted Is it possible that everything that has happened in the episode, was a part of that plan? Is it possible that Bart did all that on purpose, making mess in Lisa's soul, passing her through anger, offence, hate, then worry and even remorse, just for that final make-up scene? This might sounds unbelievable, but remember the facts again: he destroys Lisa's creation, he runs away from home for no reason, he calls her sister to the rooftop, he resists to her claims a little bit more and then suddenly "gives up", making Lisa (and himself) so happy. Smile He's an evil genius.
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ametur_poet
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2007, 04:20 »

Well, maybe. But, I've never known Bart to have anything that well planned out. And even if he didn't plan it completely, you have to admit, he's not really smart enough to improvise it.
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2007, 04:22 »

ametur_poet
Well yeah, the weak side of my theory is that Bart seems to be smarter than Lisa, at least smart enough to use her for his own purposes... Smile
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2007, 04:24 »

Also, your theory would defeat the purpose of the episode.
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2007, 04:30 »

Wow. What a witty strategem!  The lil' fella sure has been reading Sun Tzu's Art of War;-) Though I doubt the creators really meant Bart to develop such a sinister and smart-ass plan, to say nothing it's too much fuss for such a kid as he is, this theory of yours is very interesting:-)
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2007, 08:03 »

I agree, quite interesting... although, like ametur_poet suggested, I don't know if Bart would be cunning enough to pull off something as well planned out as that. Or outsmart Lisa like you're suggesting he did Tongue Also... if there was a deeper pleasure than making things up with his sister on his smile during that kiss, I'd say it'd go against what we know about Bart. He generally doesn't like Lisa, and is usually disgusted by her. For someone like me, being kissed by Lisa is being sent to cloud nine, however for him... I'm not so sure Confused Still, it's an interesting possibility Smile
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Look at that hand, lying there
The room is dark, she shows no fear
I'm lying still, my eyes are wide
My heart is pumping, I'm still alive

I'm still awake against my will
What will it ever take
To still this burning in me?
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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2007, 14:18 »

It is an interesting theory. Bart often is been portraied as the usual Simpson, but also, he has cunning and intuition where he wants to have them (see: pranks, and the way to get out of trouble and put others in). Now, although i don't like the idea that he's just toying with Lisa's feelings even when they make up, it is a possblity. He could like the fact of being always the one "in charge" of the situation and so, to "rule" the game.

My god, Bart's an evil genius. Big Grin
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Did he open up his eyes?
Did he try to touch my hand,
Or is my mind playing tricks on me?
Do you think he hears us cry?
Does he understand
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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2007, 20:27 »

Dagdamor
Very interesting theory Big Grin And I partially agree - he isn't simple boy, sometimes he shows fake feelings and of course he thinks about his own benefit even in sibling relations (remember when he was told about Lisa's future as a President, he knew she may be useful for him). But I must agree with ametur_poet, Bart is not so smart and consecutive to plan it day after day.

But he uses Lisa different way - to show others that he is cool. Very often he hurts Lisa acting that way - in "Secret war of Lisa Simpson", for example. He's afraid to show his real feelings, because others chilren's words are so important for him. Of course, it's kinda normal for 10-years old boy, and I'm so happy, when he is expressing his real deep feelings. I prefer to believe that it's real Bart - kind, vulnerable and loving brother.
But there are a lot of cruel moments in their relations, especially last season. Bart puts Lisa's baby pictures album under his foot to reach gas pedal, Bart says he loves his new pet snake more than Lisa - all these moment are so disappointing :/
These relations like that moment, when he broke his close relations to Marge in "Marge's son poisoning", after jokes from bullies. I think, Bart-Lisa relationship would be much stronger when he'll become older and more independent from other people opinions.
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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2007, 21:08 »

Yes, it certainly is an interesting theory and I can see where you're coming from but having re-watched the episode I really can't agree with it.   I think the crucial scene is that one on the roof.   It's a tribute to the writers that they didn't have Bart immediately show remorse when he hears Lisa crying.   Instead of going down that rather obvious route, when Lisa joins him on the roof, he's actually totally unapologetic.   It's only when Lisa tells him to look deep inside himself and he reluctantly does so, that he realises the terrible thing he has done.   As Bart talks himself through what he did that day you can see the moment that realisation hits him and you can see by the look on his face that he's genuinely upset.   It's a great combination of writing, animation and acting...and this was only season 2!   Incredible.
Besides, if the theory was correct, it would go against probably the most important theme of The Simpsons at that time, the idea that despite their differences, problems and even dysfunctionality, they stick together as a family and deep down they all love eachother.   And I just don't think Bart's that bad!  Bart
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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2007, 21:16 »

Yes, Janglewolf and Brakusaetsya (most complex nick i ever spelt Tongue )'s reasonings are imho what ultimately is true. And so much better from a simple "feelingful" point of view. It was fun for a while to think about possible other insights, though Smile
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Did he open up his eyes?
Did he try to touch my hand,
Or is my mind playing tricks on me?
Do you think he hears us cry?
Does he understand
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« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2007, 14:51 »

Hehe, I have to agree. Smile Perhaps the idea of "smart Bart" is far beyond his possibilities, besides, one has to be a very selfish person to play such an evil game with his own sister, and Bart seems to be better than that, despite all his ugly behavior in the show. But still, it was interesting to look at the familiar scene from different point of view.

janglewolf
You know, there were several decent episodes in season 3, too... *runs*
Seriously talking, the episode Marco has taken screenshots from, was brilliant, I agree here again.
And the nearly last scene, when Homer said to Marge that they are great parents... *LOL* Big Grin
He had the point, though.

brakusaetsya
Did I understand you right? Bart doesn't really love Lisa, he acts nicely towards her sometimes, but that's more an exception than a rule, especially in the recent seasons? That's very close to what I feel, because like I said, I don't trust Bart much. Sad I still remember the "On A Clear Day" beginning, when he nearly killed Lisa.
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« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2007, 19:02 »

Dagdamor
Nope, I've said quite opposite: he really loves her, I think, but he is so selfish and childish that he could do something really bad for her. Then he shows his real feelings, but one day it may happen too late...
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2007, 00:04 »

brakusaetsya
Are you saying that one day maybe Bart will go too far and Lisa won't be able to forgive him? I've often felt this way about Bart, never really trusted his character, or liked it at all... mostly because of the things he does to Lisa Sad
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Look at that hand, lying there
The room is dark, she shows no fear
I'm lying still, my eyes are wide
My heart is pumping, I'm still alive

I'm still awake against my will
What will it ever take
To still this burning in me?
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2007, 02:57 »

GeorgeHarrison
Lisa will forgive Bart everything. She can't hold grudge against anyone for more than 22 minutes. Smile
What I'm more worrying about, is that one horrible day Lisa might simply not live long enough to see Bart's next remorse, considering things he does to her - some of them are plain dangerous! I'm not serious here of course, I believe this is not going to happen - the Simpsons is the sitcom show, and every character is important, but still... sometimes I have this weird feeling watching Bart's behavior. Sad
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2007, 04:53 »

Dagdamor
That's a pretty morbid thought to consider Eek I'm sure it'll be accidental if he ever... kills her, but like you mentioned, it is not so far away considering what he did to her in "On A Clear Day...", though I still have to see that episode again, it's been awhile Confused

But of course, like you've also said, the writers would never write a part in for her to... die, it's a comedy for crying out loud Tongue
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Look at that hand, lying there
The room is dark, she shows no fear
I'm lying still, my eyes are wide
My heart is pumping, I'm still alive

I'm still awake against my will
What will it ever take
To still this burning in me?
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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2007, 07:32 »

GeorgeHarrison
Of course sitcom rules never let her die or terribly ruin her life. But it comes so damn close sometimes, and even kind and patient Lisa gets angry, so it could ruin their relationship, making a distance between grownups Bart & Lisa, if he wouldn't change his behaviour. Patience has its limits, I think even for Lisa unforgivable things exist. I don't think she would hate him all her life if he'll do something really terrible, but it may change their relations to formal family meetings one time every year.
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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2007, 08:27 »

That's another thing about it, future relationships: From the little we got to see about it, it seems that in the future Bart and Lisa are still having nice relations with each other, and if possible even less contrasting. That makes me hope that with time, both Bart and Lisa grow up to know themselves a bit better and leave the childish bickerings. Smile
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Did he open up his eyes?
Did he try to touch my hand,
Or is my mind playing tricks on me?
Do you think he hears us cry?
Does he understand
We are here, by his side...
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2007, 14:39 »

SimpReal
That's what lead me to make my point about "Maybe this is just a sibling rivalrly like every other family with brothers and sisters", usually they turn out all right when they're adults Smile As long as one party isn't extremely abusive (which they usually aren't), the two usually grow up and forget about their problems.

I think, actually, they would both be able to live in peace if not for Bart. Lisa's general attitude is typically the peaceful one, Bart is usually the instigator in all these situations.
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Look at that hand, lying there
The room is dark, she shows no fear
I'm lying still, my eyes are wide
My heart is pumping, I'm still alive

I'm still awake against my will
What will it ever take
To still this burning in me?
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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2007, 16:03 »

How do you all think, if Lisa would be first born child in Simpsons family instead of Bart and he would be two years younger, how would it change their personalities and relationship between each other and also with Homer? Maybe having one sweet obedient daughter he would be more kind to younger bad boy and never start to strangle anyone? Or opposite, he would change Lisa himself, making her more boyish?
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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2007, 16:15 »

That's a really interesting question, Bra!
Let's see... thinking about it, Lisa has the typical character of a first born. Caring, mature, sensitive, while Bart has all the traits of a second born. Envious, troublemaker, irresponsible and hyperactive. But still we can notice "joining points" in various episodes where Lisa's character deviates a bit into Bart-territory and viceversa.

If they had reversed roles, i think their respective characters would be even less balanced, maybe making for a more unstable relationship and possibly even a worse show altogether.
But maybe.. just maybe... you can never know. Lisa could have grown up more spoiled and Bart more responsible in respect. This is a very thoughtful issue.   Idea  Lisa Bart
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2007, 20:52 »

SimpReal
I've just imagined Lisa playing baseball with Homer at their yard, dunno why, and that's why I start thinking about it Smile

But maybe 2 years age gap is not big enough to really change something. If Lisa would be much older then her brother, maybe she could be someone like big Maggie - less sensitive, more self-reliant and more boyish. I doubt that a little bit young age could stop Bart from hurting his sister, so even 2 years elder she would be suffering Sad And of course I agree, that how goes it best with Bart as elder child, cause Lisa as middle child could show much more to spectators and be more sweet and adorable that in other age.
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« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2007, 05:00 »