I suggest to dicsuss the relations of Lisa and her mum. How you think, how much the Marge's influence on formation of her mantality, her vital position? Whether is Marge a good example for Lisa? Whether she is good mother?

As we remember in an episode 'Moanin Lisa' Marge forced Lisa to make a smile all the time she associated with the people. And what effect it have given. Thanks to Marge, she could understand what to do and has allowed Lisa to conduct herself on her own, only as she feels, not looking at the others. That has so inspired little girl that she began to smile at the same moment - sincere and happy smile.

Marge causes the strongest influence on formation of Lisa' character. Of course the gens play the big role, but not less important and correctly to bring up and develop the potential from a birth. Otherwise Lisa would be such what her showed in Ulmann Shows.

Whether careful mother Marge are? Certainly. In episode "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad Marge" she speaks on a secret to Becky that she places some broth into Lisa's vegetarian foods. Whether it in the best way proves her parent care of health of the child?

Whether she is strict to Lisa? Yes, she is strict. But only so, to support Lisa on a "right" way and to prevent her from sliding to a ordinary being. Like all girls of her age does. Well, probably Marge too strongly brings the focus to Lisa' acts remiting Bart's much more pranks and oversights. But without such mother's attention, I think, Lisa would go on an occasion at the low feelings as it happened with Bart. I don't speak here about that it is good or bad to listen to the "low" feelings. Her abstention from this is the strongest factor forming her person.

Marge always supports Lisa in her undertakings and induces to struggle up to the end. And also there are such moments, when Lisa does not require any more with Marge's approval to choice her own way. That was shown in "Lisa the Treehugger", "Lisa the vegetarian", "She of little faith" and many others. Thanking Marge Lisa became such as we know her. Many thanks Margie for those efforts which she puts into her daughter.

Yggdrasill
Lisa's connection to Marge is very strong, I always remember moment from "Treehouse of Horror X", when Lisa had to choose between lifes of her parents, and she made her choice in about a second

But I can't said that Marge seems to be excellent mother. Yes, her role in Lisa's life is very important: for me most impressive was episode "Monkey Suit", when Lisa almost gave up her struggle (why she does it so often,why? ), but Marge, piois Marge understood Lisa's beliefs and helped her. When Marge read "Origin of species", that was so incredible!

They both may learn something from each other. Lisa is so unique, she gives Margie new viewpoints. Also, she supports her, too: she persuaded Marge take drawing lessons, reanimated her talent.  Marge is more materially-minded, maybe she out-of-date, but she is so reliable and no matter, what happens, Lisa always can ask mom for help.

It's so disgusting, when I heard it, my opinion about Marge changed. How could she? If Lisa knows, she'll be really unhappy, I think. Marge could discuss diet question with Lisa before doing this. That's why I can't call Marge a perfect mother.

But she is much better, much more adequate than 90% mothers in this world, i think.  

GeorgeHarrison
"There comes a time in all our lives when we have to decide what to believe"

I'm much agree with you here. The obtrusion of spirituality is not a right way out. It's necessary to create such conditions that it was interesting to person to be engaged in it. And it is possible or when all around of you also very spiritual and cultural persons (you are compelled to "catch up" with them) or when when conditions in which you live absolutely intolerable (then you opposing yourself to a society, choosing other way).

"she has fallen into the rut of being a typical housewife and not being as intelligent as Lisa"

Well, i agree that Marge falls in housewife's rut, however i think that to be a decent person not means necessary to be an intellectual, especially in such degree as Lisa. Cause her brains - the gift from a birth, not to everyone it is given such. Therefore it is not necessary to distinguish Lisa from others because of her intellegence. But this is almost another theme for conversation. The point is in spiritual qualities of Lisa and Marge.

"I know that! It doesn't take a nuke-you-ler scientist to pronounce foilage! (Marge)"
You know, first i was agreed in something with Marge. In that she is oppose Lisa's "importunate" attempts to change her (right, Lisa tries to change Marge in a certain way). But later, having thought once again, i have understood that to change people is necessary, if they don't wanna do it themselves. Therefore i speak i'm on Lisa side here (again). As to Marge I think it was necessary to her simply agree with her daughter, neverthless to hint her that to correct the grown-ups is not very good.


brakusaetsya
"I always remember moment from "Treehouse of Horror X", when Lisa had to choose between lifes of her parents, and she made her choice in about a second"
Yeah-yeah! I recollected this moment yesterday too, when wrote this theme. That was very eloquet moment

"Lisa is so unique, she gives Margie new viewpoints"
That's right to the bone! Marge has her consciousness in a germinal condition. But her best sides was inherited by Lisa.

"Marge is more materially-minded, maybe she out-of-date"
I would to tell that she is very obsolete with her feministic views. Simply she, so to speak, continues struggle for gender equality whilst there's no trace of women's oppression (in states of course). About her obsolescence speak also that how she dresses. Classical dress in style of fiftieth you meet now not so frequently. As the magnificent high hairdress. But she inspires Lisa to struggle very much. I think she is the main cause of Lisa's persistence and confidence of own forces. To be the strongest one is not easy... you need very powerful source of internal forces.
And, certainly, the attention must be given to a constancy of her views, as you sayed, she is very reliable. I agree that very much.

"In episode "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad Marge" she speaks on a secret to Becky that she places some broth into Lisa's vegetarian foods
It's so disgusting, when I heard it, my opinion about Marge changed."
No, wait... (maybe my answer will kinda disappoint you) Marge are first of all mother, and for her the major task is the worry about health of her offspring. If Lisa would at least 16 years old then all is ok. But refusal of the use of meat at early age can affect the future development badly. And i'm solidary wuth Marge wuth that. It is good that she doesn't allows Lisa's beliefs to fascinate herself. Concerning to this no more as to hobby, with a wise parent smile she constantly observing how her daughter spiritually grows. And protecting her from stumbling.
Just there are always must be someone who will keep the plain human pragmatism. Even to be a support for young spiky-haired dreamers.

"Marge could discuss diet question with Lisa before doing this"
Well you know what answer Lisa would give. She rather die than let herself eat some meat again. And Marge was simply forced to take such step. What much more excites me is her weakness to booze and gaming. That's a really bad sides of her character.

GeorgeHarrison
Excuse me but i shall allow myself to disagree with you here.
Marge is not obliged to be an understanding mother, to be tolerant to all "follies" of her girl, in this case can permit to herself to be a "bad" mother. But in no circumstances she should not let her child to be exposed with even the slightest danger. I very much respect Marge for she steadfastly takes care of her daughter, but does not interfere till last moment, giving her a sensation of freedom. Whether it is the maximum degree of tolerance of parents to children? Those who has grown 'em, cherished by the soul, gave them their own heart?

Lisa for certain knows much more me in questions of a vegetarian feed, and she has for certain managed to pick up such diet for herself to not put any harm to the organism. I believe for her it is possible.
But we never saw before that she used to know very well all subtleties of such diet. That's the point i'm just not confident that Lisa well knows that she does - it's not she who prepares the food to herself, but Marge again. And from that I know about vegetarianism i can conclude that health hazard let microscopic but is still presents. So it's necerrasy to take any measures on its prevention. On this point i think i would act in accuracy as Marge (knowingly i have written that i'm similar to her in something ) I completely support her, she should not go on any concessions before the daughter. For it's not she then who will stand up for her daughter until the end?

"And it is also important to remember why Lisa has chosen to become a vegetarian: by boycotting the consumption of all meat products, she is attempting to help save the lives of animals."
All this is very good, but in fact you understand, what is more important for the mother - health of her own dear daughter or a lifes even a billions of animals?

I very much would like to see sometime any opinions of the others more... emm... senior fans of Lisa in this occasion if they have read this thread (i don't try at all to enter any "discrimination" on age here ).

Yggdrasill


So, you think we are crazy teens-maximalists, don't you?

Of course, people with children would give quite different answers... I agree that I can't completely understand Marge, cause I haven't children and I don't now how is it - to worry about someone but me...

But anyway, broth's nutrition value is very small, it can't help to keep Lisa's health. I think, Marge doing this not for Lisa, but for herself. She just tries to persuade herself that she is good mother.

Marge often understands her daughter, but i think, she couldn't, like most of people in this world, completely accept all Lisa's differences. Remember position of vegetarianism in Springfield Elementary... Remember, how Marge asked Lisa keep visiting Christian Church. Remember her reaction for Lisa's "Ok, no husband!" in 18*07. I think that she just want her daughter to be "straight", just like the others: perfect girl without any differences, with education, marriage, children...

Parents (both vegans and non-vegans) usually foisting their tastes to their children, no matter, useful or useless there are...
And vegetarians here would support Lisa, others -  Marge.

But as a vegetarian, I can say, that there are many ways to hurt and destroy living creatures, and we all unintentionally doing it every day by using all gifts of civilization... But if I can just not to kill them for food, I want do this, and so Lisa does and Marge didn't care neither about her health nor about her feelings in this situation.

UPD. Also, remember when Lisa almost became an anorexic in "Sleeping with the enemy"... Why Marge worried about vegetarianism and didn't worry about that, more dangerous thing, if she want to keep her daughter healthy?

GeorgeHarrison
I think i should apologize right now for my tactlessness. I did not to offend you or somebody who is more younger than me. I'm repeated I am not going to do some division on "younger-sillier" and "elder-wiser". That's no so at all. These lines are written not to make you think that i disagree with you because of the age. I ask to not perceive my words as aimed at you. Thta is not correct.

"I may be fourteen, but I am by no means ignorant of Marge's reasoning. I simply don't agree with it"
That's it. From this very position i also consider you as an interlocutor, in no circumstances from a position of age. My apologies again. I'll be glad to see your replies asd further.

brakusaetsya
"So, you think we are crazy teens-maximalists, don't you?"
No. I'm not think so at all. Moreover i also write here because i like to discuss such theme with people to whom it is interesting independently of the age. I simply wanted to involve other participants with such clumsy manner. I was wrong since i've hurted someone not wishing that purposefully.

"Marge doing this not for Lisa, but for herself. She just tries to persuade herself that she is good mother."
That's very interesting thought. But if so, then its all turns out that she already believes she is not a good mother.
But in episodes "Parent Rap" and "Home Sweet Homediddly-Dum-Doodily" we almost saw that when Marge was blamed by an exterior persons in unfair parent care she always denied all that accusation. She is sure that she's a good mother. And as a rule she manages to prove that.

But there's one clause. And about that you have just mentioned. She estimates herself as a good mother only if she does all in accuracy how it is "necessary", as it does all the people. She considers any deviation not differently as a crime, that you have told about too. Hence, to be like everyone, to be a "normal" is the need for Marge. Otherwise she feels discomfort and tries to avoid this emotional condition, convulsively trying to alter both herself and the members of her family on the common way. I. e. it turns out that she does it only for herself. It certainly not so good stimulus to action, but it can bring the certain results. In fact as its known the most well-known way - is the most realible. And Marge tries to follow that blazed path because there's need to have force to find an own way. Which Marge seemingly don't have.

But Lisa have these forces and she can really find her own road in life. The point in that, whether she can realize her potential. Because all around of her as if called not to let her to develop. Thats and making you dill life in Springfield, and a very weak teaching at school, and even her own mother afraid all new, but neverthless always ready to support her daughter.

"But anyway, broth's nutrition value is very small, it can't help to keep Lisa's health"
But in that continually, that i do not consider the actions of Marge from positions of efficiency/rationality. (that's Lisa' privilege) I only speak about, whether is ready Marge to undertake thouh any actions, or she will simply sit and look twiddlind her thumbs.

Besides I am strong doubt that Lisa could not notice a certain "strange" taste of her food. That directs at other ideas and confuses a situation even more: Marge tries to indulge Lisa, but at the same time tries to return her in a normal channel; Lisa from her part seeing the efforts of Marge doesn't want to disappoint her, but what for then all that performance with principles?.. I have got confused...

There's one more explanation. Probably i should not so strongly concentrate attention on thos insignificiant moment which was undoptedly a joke. In fact it was never mentioned further, so it as though wasn't present at all.

Marge tries to understand Lisa like Homer does. And, like Homer she fails. It is a relationship that I think needs more time devoted to it as opposed to the oft-rehashed !HomerDisappointsLisa! plotlines of recent years.

I've rewatched "Bart on the Road" and "New Kids on the Blecch" yesterday, and one thing surprised me a little:when Lisa tries to discover Bart's or L.T Smash's lies, Marge at first suggests, that Lisa just simply envies Bart. So, Marge treats Lisa a bit more childish, than she is? Or maybe it's normal reaction for tired mother of three kids

And interesting moment with Marge and Maggie - when Marge needed attention, she at first woke her up, and then calmed her down only for being not alone. Could anyone remember similar moments for Lisa-Marge relationship, when they tried hard to get some attention from each other?

Yes, I agree And so Lisa did, whe Homer and Bart ignored her in "Little Big Mom". But is there any scenes with Marge acting like this in others episodes? Usually when she feels lonely without attention, she just grumbles without actions. So, is this so much expressive scene unique?

brakusaetsya
"Could anyone remember similar moments for Lisa-Marge relationship, when they tried hard to get some attention from each other?"
I would like to recollect something that you have told, but unfortunately there comes nothing to cross my mind. But i can remember how Marge again tried to win Bart's and Lisa's sympathies. For example in episode "Sleeping With The Enemy" she tries to pal up with her children but they turn away... Since it causes her to shelter Nelson.

As for Lisa i don't think that she have lack of intercourse with her mother. Eventually it is Marge who is mother and the mistress and as she asks her relatives, being interested in all aspects of their lives and supports in general the little community of the family "in act". If Lisa lacks of somebody's attention then she adresses directly to the object of her adoration. As it was in cases with Jesse Grass from "Lisa the Tree Hugger" or that guy Luke from "Dude, Where's My Ranch?". So i can only say that Lisa have need for attention from Marge' side. Because, well, she already has it. And i think it is good.

Though correct me if i'm wrong but i have some fragmentary memoirs when Lisa says to Marge: "I miss you, mummy". But i can't remember from where it have come. Maybe not from cartoon at all but from fan-fics...

brakusaetsya
Oh, i forgot to answer your another question:
"when Lisa tries to discover Bart's or L.T Smash's lies, Marge at first suggests, that Lisa just simply envies Bart. So, Marge treats Lisa a bit more childish, than she is?"

I shall agree Marge really seems not percieve Lisa seriously. And it's understandable, what mother beings to consider her little daughter asult enough to make independent decisions. Since she concerns to her as to the usual kid.

But i have a crazy idea: what if Marge understands and clearly sees how Lisa outstrips her and because of it envies her a little. Inspiring her that she is too small and can't have own comprehension of the point. All the same i think Marge understands what huge influence she have on her daughter and there's nothing surprising that she tries sometimes to apply her authority above Lisa in such key.

"But sometimes Marge seems to be jealous when Lisa spends a lot of time with Homer or others"
That sounds probable, at least Lisa is her only substantial ally in womankind in family though only an eight-years old. And since there's no another women in her everyday life she starts to consider her daughter as equal to her more or less. Remember how she said discontentedly she has similar feelings to Homer when Lisa tryes to tell that her attitude to Mr.Bergstrom is special very much and that Marge seems never to understand her?

GeorgeHarrison
"Although, I do remember that when I saw that scene, it didn't surprise me that Marge needed to wake Maggie up."
Indeed, it looks naturally to see her acting that way. Loneliness and the lack of dialogue can force people to make worse stupidities. Of course there's nothing pleasant to see crying Maggie but nevertheless theres nothing really bad was happened... i think.

Yggdrasill
Not sure exactly how to respond to this... the first thing you said though ("Does Marge try to protect her from the horrors of the real world?") Imho, it is a futile effort for parents to do such things, kids it seems are finding out earlier and earlier these days. As for not counting the consequences of her actions, well, many times bravery is often stupidity. Not that bravery is a bad thing, but usually the bravest course is the stupidest one. Considering what could happen, that is. As I've heard said in a war movie once before, "You've got more balls than brains, kid. Exactly what this job requires."

No, I don't think so.   Though it is true that Marge is protective, Lisa as we know is still very politically and socially aware.   On a side note, the Joan of Arc scene wasn't a particularly realistic piece of writing in my opinion - given Lisa's extensive knowledge, I'd be surprised if she didn't know the true ending...anyway...
Even as early as Moaning Lisa, Lisa is shown to be acutely aware of the suffering and injustice in the world so despite Marge's best efforts, it seems to me that her daughter doesn't have many illusions about the reality of life.

This is interesting, because to me, this indicates that Lisa is brave.   To impulsively do something without thought, isn't necessarily brave, recklessness and stupidity can also lead to that behaviour.   As we've discussed elsewhere, Lisa does have an impulsive side but usually she is the sort of person who would take the time to reason through the consequences of her actions.   With her level of intelligence she would have more awareness than most of what those consequences would be.   Given that awareness, the fact that she still puts herself on the line for what she believes in, convinces me that she is indeed a very brave little girl. 

I finally watched the movie today (no spoilers, don't worry) and it makes me see even better Simpsons girls' feminine solidarity. Althought their views are different, they still have so much in common in comparison to male Simpsons - they blame the same and praise the same in Simpsons boys, only difference is - Marge is more life-experienced and can forgive more due to her great loving heart.

Dagdamor
Heh, surprisingly for me it seems that I am moving in opposite direction - even if Marge acts like victim sometimes, for me now she resembles true angel more than pretty selfish Lisa. Maybe some time ago young Homer hitted her with a slingshot when she was flying by, and than she stayed Although both mother and daughter have much to share and learn from each other.