Lisa, the Simpson!
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Author Topic: Lisa and Bart: Sibling rivalry?  (Read 4491 times)
G.H.
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2007, 08:03 »

I agree, quite interesting... although, like ametur_poet suggested, I don't know if Bart would be cunning enough to pull off something as well planned out as that. Or outsmart Lisa like you're suggesting he did Tongue Also... if there was a deeper pleasure than making things up with his sister on his smile during that kiss, I'd say it'd go against what we know about Bart. He generally doesn't like Lisa, and is usually disgusted by her. For someone like me, being kissed by Lisa is being sent to cloud nine, however for him... I'm not so sure Confused Still, it's an interesting possibility Smile
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SimpReal
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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2007, 14:18 »

It is an interesting theory. Bart often is been portraied as the usual Simpson, but also, he has cunning and intuition where he wants to have them (see: pranks, and the way to get out of trouble and put others in). Now, although i don't like the idea that he's just toying with Lisa's feelings even when they make up, it is a possblity. He could like the fact of being always the one "in charge" of the situation and so, to "rule" the game.

My god, Bart's an evil genius. Big Grin
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brakusaetsya
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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2007, 20:27 »

Dagdamor
Very interesting theory Big Grin And I partially agree - he isn't simple boy, sometimes he shows fake feelings and of course he thinks about his own benefit even in sibling relations (remember when he was told about Lisa's future as a President, he knew she may be useful for him). But I must agree with ametur_poet, Bart is not so smart and consecutive to plan it day after day.

But he uses Lisa different way - to show others that he is cool. Very often he hurts Lisa acting that way - in "Secret war of Lisa Simpson", for example. He's afraid to show his real feelings, because others chilren's words are so important for him. Of course, it's kinda normal for 10-years old boy, and I'm so happy, when he is expressing his real deep feelings. I prefer to believe that it's real Bart - kind, vulnerable and loving brother.
But there are a lot of cruel moments in their relations, especially last season. Bart puts Lisa's baby pictures album under his foot to reach gas pedal, Bart says he loves his new pet snake more than Lisa - all these moment are so disappointing :/
These relations like that moment, when he broke his close relations to Marge in "Marge's son poisoning", after jokes from bullies. I think, Bart-Lisa relationship would be much stronger when he'll become older and more independent from other people opinions.
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janglewolf
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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2007, 21:08 »

Yes, it certainly is an interesting theory and I can see where you're coming from but having re-watched the episode I really can't agree with it.   I think the crucial scene is that one on the roof.   It's a tribute to the writers that they didn't have Bart immediately show remorse when he hears Lisa crying.   Instead of going down that rather obvious route, when Lisa joins him on the roof, he's actually totally unapologetic.   It's only when Lisa tells him to look deep inside himself and he reluctantly does so, that he realises the terrible thing he has done.   As Bart talks himself through what he did that day you can see the moment that realisation hits him and you can see by the look on his face that he's genuinely upset.   It's a great combination of writing, animation and acting...and this was only season 2!   Incredible.
Besides, if the theory was correct, it would go against probably the most important theme of The Simpsons at that time, the idea that despite their differences, problems and even dysfunctionality, they stick together as a family and deep down they all love eachother.   And I just don't think Bart's that bad!  Bart
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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2007, 21:16 »

Yes, Janglewolf and Brakusaetsya (most complex nick i ever spelt Tongue )'s reasonings are imho what ultimately is true. And so much better from a simple "feelingful" point of view. It was fun for a while to think about possible other insights, though Smile
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Did he try to touch my hand,
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Do you think he hears us cry?
Does he understand
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Dagdamor
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« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2007, 14:51 »

Hehe, I have to agree. Smile Perhaps the idea of "smart Bart" is far beyond his possibilities, besides, one has to be a very selfish person to play such an evil game with his own sister, and Bart seems to be better than that, despite all his ugly behavior in the show. But still, it was interesting to look at the familiar scene from different point of view.

janglewolf
You know, there were several decent episodes in season 3, too... *runs*
Seriously talking, the episode Marco has taken screenshots from, was brilliant, I agree here again.
And the nearly last scene, when Homer said to Marge that they are great parents... *LOL* Big Grin
He had the point, though.

brakusaetsya
Did I understand you right? Bart doesn't really love Lisa, he acts nicely towards her sometimes, but that's more an exception than a rule, especially in the recent seasons? That's very close to what I feel, because like I said, I don't trust Bart much. Sad I still remember the "On A Clear Day" beginning, when he nearly killed Lisa.
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brakusaetsya
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« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2007, 19:02 »

Dagdamor
Nope, I've said quite opposite: he really loves her, I think, but he is so selfish and childish that he could do something really bad for her. Then he shows his real feelings, but one day it may happen too late...
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G.H.
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2007, 00:04 »

brakusaetsya
Are you saying that one day maybe Bart will go too far and Lisa won't be able to forgive him? I've often felt this way about Bart, never really trusted his character, or liked it at all... mostly because of the things he does to Lisa Sad
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Dagdamor
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2007, 02:57 »

GeorgeHarrison
Lisa will forgive Bart everything. She can't hold grudge against anyone for more than 22 minutes. Smile
What I'm more worrying about, is that one horrible day Lisa might simply not live long enough to see Bart's next remorse, considering things he does to her - some of them are plain dangerous! I'm not serious here of course, I believe this is not going to happen - the Simpsons is the sitcom show, and every character is important, but still... sometimes I have this weird feeling watching Bart's behavior. Sad
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2007, 04:53 »

Dagdamor
That's a pretty morbid thought to consider Eek I'm sure it'll be accidental if he ever... kills her, but like you mentioned, it is not so far away considering what he did to her in "On A Clear Day...", though I still have to see that episode again, it's been awhile Confused

But of course, like you've also said, the writers would never write a part in for her to... die, it's a comedy for crying out loud Tongue
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brakusaetsya
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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2007, 07:32 »

GeorgeHarrison
Of course sitcom rules never let her die or terribly ruin her life. But it comes so damn close sometimes, and even kind and patient Lisa gets angry, so it could ruin their relationship, making a distance between grownups Bart & Lisa, if he wouldn't change his behaviour. Patience has its limits, I think even for Lisa unforgivable things exist. I don't think she would hate him all her life if he'll do something really terrible, but it may change their relations to formal family meetings one time every year.
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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2007, 08:27 »

That's another thing about it, future relationships: From the little we got to see about it, it seems that in the future Bart and Lisa are still having nice relations with each other, and if possible even less contrasting. That makes me hope that with time, both Bart and Lisa grow up to know themselves a bit better and leave the childish bickerings. Smile
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Did he open up his eyes?
Did he try to touch my hand,
Or is my mind playing tricks on me?
Do you think he hears us cry?
Does he understand
We are here, by his side...
G.H.
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2007, 14:39 »

SimpReal
That's what lead me to make my point about "Maybe this is just a sibling rivalrly like every other family with brothers and sisters", usually they turn out all right when they're adults Smile As long as one party isn't extremely abusive (which they usually aren't), the two usually grow up and forget about their problems.

I think, actually, they would both be able to live in peace if not for Bart. Lisa's general attitude is typically the peaceful one, Bart is usually the instigator in all these situations.
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brakusaetsya
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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2007, 16:03 »

How do you all think, if Lisa would be first born child in Simpsons family instead of Bart and he would be two years younger, how would it change their personalities and relationship between each other and also with Homer? Maybe having one sweet obedient daughter he would be more kind to younger bad boy and never start to strangle anyone? Or opposite, he would change Lisa himself, making her more boyish?
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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2007, 16:15 »

That's a really interesting question, Bra!
Let's see... thinking about it, Lisa has the typical character of a first born. Caring, mature, sensitive, while Bart has all the traits of a second born. Envious, troublemaker, irresponsible and hyperactive. But still we can notice "joining points" in various episodes where Lisa's character deviates a bit into Bart-territory and viceversa.

If they had reversed roles, i think their respective characters would be even less balanced, maybe making for a more unstable relationship and possibly even a worse show altogether.
But maybe.. just maybe... you can never know. Lisa could have grown up more spoiled and Bart more responsible in respect. This is a very thoughtful issue.   Idea  Lisa Bart
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Did he open up his eyes?
Did he try to touch my hand,
Or is my mind playing tricks on me?
Do you think he hears us cry?
Does he understand
We are here, by his side...
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