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Lisa, the Simpson! > Discussions > Lisa's Friends > Topic: yeah, dont give ME a chance to respond More thoughts... (WAS: Should I use Piczo?)
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Author Topic: yeah, dont give ME a chance to respond More thoughts... (WAS: Should I use Piczo?)  (Read 1653 times)
Gazmanafc
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« on: January 28, 2007, 16:08 »
Ugh, what, are we not allowed to expess our thoughts anymore? Looks like there cant be any heated arguments here... not that I care, I'm expressing only what it's like in the community.

http://www.lisa-simpson.net/topic/128

Brace a long one.

And if pagebuilders suck, the Simpsons community must be quite horrifying for you. More than 50% of the sites are made using Photoshop Slices and Cutenews. There isn't much that produces more horrible HTML than that combination.
Actually, most people slice in Photoshop, and ditch the HTML page it creates and then re-create the whole HTML again from scratch, I know Adam, Jukka, Scott and Jon Levin do. Cutenews is a news script, all it does is post news onto your website for you. That has nothing to do with it.

I agree with you that learning HTML is nice if you want to build a site, but it isn't necessary.
It is. You cant get very far if you dont know how to make a link or how to add a line break. Resorting to pagebuilders is the suckers way out.

The lay-out isn't everything! Look at Google. It has the most simplistic, easy to make lay-out and yet it's the most popular search engine on the internet. People visit sites for the content, not for the lay-out.
Thats all well and good for Google, but guess what, we're not comparing this to google. This is the Simpsons not a search engine, in the Simpsons you must have a layout or you wont get anywhere far.

And Dreamweaver is for noobs, just like Microsoft Frontpage and Photoshop Slices!  Real coders use Notepad.
First, I dont use Photoshop, second, I dont use Frontpage, and third I do use Notepad, I only use Dreamweaver mostly for colour syntaxing, I do much of the code myself.

You cant compare 'Multi-talk' to a free hosted website builder.
First, thats Multi Talk 2, get it right. And second I wasnt comparing MT2 to a website built in a page builder, because its a forum, you cant compare forums to websites. If you want a website to compare it to, compare it to The Cutest Baby at http://babysimpson.co.uk

For the sake of opinion, I think Multi-talk sucks.
Uh-huh. Whatever, well I say this forum sucks also, the theme is the default, the emoticons arent Simpsony, the actual Simpson emoticons dont exactly express any type of emotion, hardly any edits have been made, and the software is out of date. I only come for the art.

It looks good, but content is poor, half of which seems like re-worded stuff from other information sites, regularly interupted by a ':P'.
Not quite, there's jokes, games, tutorials, a showcase, and funny stabs to Clive_Evil_C, LOADS of stuff is original, and we got a rather nice review by the reviewers at the Admin Zone forums.

JUST because you've seen a lot of Simpson sites using free website builders, you think that NONE of them can be good.
Some are good, but VERY FEW actually are. In fact, Maggie and Eric is pretty much the ONLY good site on a host like "Geoshitties" as we call it.

Some of those sites have great artists, writers, and generaly dedicated Simpson fans, who are less fortunate to be able to do things on a more proffesional scale. Bear in mind that most are probably newcomers to this, who are unfamiliar with the way the web works.
These days you can get a decent amount of space and bandwidth on a good host like Krustylu Studios if you ask Brad. And you dont even need HTML knowledge, KDL knows, he built a site with proper HTML (bit messy but still) himself, he didnt know HTML before building the site, but I was around and he asked me for help, and guess what I did, I helped him, there are people that are actually willing to help, you know. If you ask me for help, I will try to help you any way I can.

And if Maggiecute is going to use crap like Piczo, then why did I bother wasting my time creating a design  for her, slicing it, creating a subdomain and uploading it...

My two cents
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SimpReal
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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2007, 16:57 »
Here was the last thing you posted in the closed thread:

Which all suck. Plain and Simple.

My point is, with ANY Simpsons or Futurama site, people want quality, not something any half-whit can put together. If you're going to make something on Piczo, then you might as well not have built it at all.

README: What you need to know when running a Simpsons site
It seems to me like your reply does not admit a reply, right? You said what you had to say.

Besides this: You both were warned (you and casper) and you both ignored my warning and the other people tries to get the thread back to a balanced discussion. I would have reopened it if anyone of you would have asked, but i see you choosed to use the good old "i'm faking not to know why the thread was closed so i can cry about the moderator's tiranny" way. Fine, it's your game, but as i said before, we're all clever enough here to know better than this.

I'll leave this thread open and move it back to the right place hoping that the discussion will keep constructive and calm. Any off-topic comments are to be avoided, and i'd like any personal complaint about the way i manage things to come to me via PM.

Consider this as a second warning.
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Gazmanafc
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2007, 17:05 »
Meh, Whatever. Ban me, warn me, delete my account, I dont care.

All I'm doing is helping. If you dont like the comments I'm giving then tough, deal with it. I've received worse comments the comments I'm giving. They may be harsh, but thats what its like in the Simpsons Webmaster Community.

Nothing is EVER held back, rememember that before posting on other sites, especially No Homers.
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SimpReal
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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2007, 17:26 »
When i'll post at NoHomers, i'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the heads up. Wink
Now and here, we are on LTS, so...

What was the topic again?

p.s.
Any off-topic comments are to be avoided, and i'd like any personal complaint about the way i manage things to come to me via PM.
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Do you think he hears us cry?
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« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2007, 17:51 »
All I'm doing is helping.
I'm sure that initially, you were just trying to help.   The thing is though, if you're going to give advice, you have to expect that a certain proportion of the people you give it to aren't going to accept it - that's life.   It's not a personal insult and getting uptight about it or labouring the point isn't going to make any difference.

Anyway, all the flaming aside, I think this topic does raise some interesting points about how the internet has developed.   The key thing for me, is that for the early website pioneers, quite often building and maintaining a site was the primary goal in itself.   They had no choice but to learn coding etc because that was the only way to do it.    Nowadays with the internet being so widespread and universally accepted as a means of communication, people are looking to build sites as a means to an end, not as an end in itself.   I'm talking in terms of businesses who want to sell online or want a web presence for advertising or people who want a showcase for their music/art/writing etc.   For them, the primary goal is to have a presence on the web and if they haven't the time or the inclination to learn everything that's neccessary for the DIY approach and they haven't got the money to pay for a the services of a web designer, that's where the web builders come in.   Yes, you are quite right that they aren't going to get as good a result as they would if they learned coding etc. but if they can get a reasonable (to their standards), workable site then that's good enough.   Now with sites such as MySpace or Deviantart, people are even by-passing that most basic of site building - they can just upload their content to a pre-prepared template and it's job done, they're on the web.   I have a lot of respect for those who do take the DIY approach and if I ever decide to create a site, I'll most probably go down the route of learning HTML or PHP or whatever it is we'll be using at the time but at the end of the day, each to his/her own.     
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« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2007, 17:55 »
I agree with you that learning HTML is nice if you want to build a site, but it isn't necessary.
It is. You cant get very far if you dont know how to make a link or how to add a line break. Resorting to pagebuilders is the suckers way out.

I didn't know anything about HTML other than the very basics when I started with KMS. There's not a single line that I coded myself, and the current design is basically the one that I put online six years ago. Does it suck as well?

For the sake of opinion, I think Multi-talk sucks.
Uh-huh. Whatever, well I say this forum sucks also, the theme is the default, the emoticons arent Simpsony, the actual Simpson emoticons dont exactly express any type of emotion, hardly any edits have been made, and the software is out of date. I only come for the art.

If you only come for the art, why do you bother with this technical stuff at all? Mind you, this is not your forum, and you're merely a guest here, as everybody else.

And if Maggiecute is going to use crap like Piczo, then why did I bother wasting my time creating a design  for her, slicing it, creating a subdomain and uploading it...

Hmm, did she ask you for doing this? I don't think so. Your will to help others is commendable, but you certainly don't have the right to complain about her not to take your offer.
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Andreas
Gazmanafc
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« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2007, 18:01 »
Actually, she did. She posted on MT2 (I wont link this time around, can if you want me to though Tongue) and I said I'd do it. She then PM'ed me several times to ask for a layout further, and other specific little odds and sods.

I didn't know anything about HTML other than the very basics when I started with KMS. There's not a single line that I coded myself, and the current design is basically the one that I put online six years ago. Does it suck as well?
No. The very basics, links, images, line/paragraph breaks etc... is enough to make a desent site as long as you do have proper control over the code. Things like page builders dont offer that. (Well, some do, but not many really)

Here's an official offer, if you ever want my help with anything, just PM me, I'm always available and willing to help. KDL managed to build his site, The Simpsons Warehose by asking me questions about HTML on MSN, you can do that too if you wanted. Tongue
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2007, 07:36 »
* Dagdamor deletes his previous post and forwards it to Gary's PM instead

Okay... I hope I can explain my thoughts calmly now. Smile First of all, the discussion went into wrong direction once again. The question was, can automatic builders be used for creating a site, not which method is better! It's really simple imho... online builders can be useful, otherwise they wouldn't exist at all, and yes, building sites in Notepad is more professional than using Photoshop-generated code. What is the discussion about? Gary, please stop mentioning your endless professionalism and usefulness to the Simpsons community (as well as posting links to your projects in every message)... because well, it really doesn't look nice now, it went over the top. The same about scolding others' works and thoughts here. Please. If you don't like something, it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

The very first Simpsons site I've met was created using online builder. Maybe it wasn't as professionally done, and the HTML wasn't as clean, but the content was nice and interesting, and it made me interested in the whole "Simpsons on the web" subject. What's wrong in that? Imagine that its author has met a person like you in the past, who told him not to use that builder... the author would have to learn HTML, CSS, Javascript - to spend a lot of time only do do the same work himself... and in the end, I'm almost sure, he would lose interest and wouldn't create his site at all. Don't you think it would be only worse?

My personal opinion is that any good site should be created by different people... minimum three. Let's call them Designer, Programmer, and Content Manager. (Slicing images and coding HTML is also Programmer's work, not Designer's one.) They cannot be the same person - because Designer should have artistic mind to create a nice-looking picture, Programmer should have pure technical mind to code it well, and Content Manager should be interested in the site subject to make it interesting to the visitor. These three roles are almost mutually exclusive, I don't know a single person in this world that could combine all three in his mind - they are too different. That's why services like Piczo exist - they allow people to create their own sites, even if they aren't good in programming or designing.

I'd personally prefer seeing Kath's site on Piczo. It's nice that you created a site for her, but don't forget you will also have to teach her to update it (which is actually the same HTML, CSS, Javascript lessons + FTP usage ones). Besides... no offense, but this new site looks very similar to TCB. It doesn't look original at all - same header, same footer, same menu... only colors and images have changed. That's not the best way to create a new site imho.
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Gazmanafc
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2007, 15:58 »
Gary, please stop mentioning your endless professionalism and usefulness to the Simpsons community (as well as posting links to your projects in every message)... because well, it really doesn't look nice now, it went over the top.
I never said that it WAS nice, and if its too harsh for you, then well, there's nothing that's going to make me say it any nicer, its what its like. Actually, I'm not saying that I'm all that useful, there actually people out there that can do a better job than I can.

The very first Simpsons site I've met was created using online builder. Maybe it wasn't as professionally done, and the HTML wasn't as clean, but the content was nice and interesting, and it made me interested in the whole "Simpsons on the web" subject. What's wrong in that?
I did say this to Marco, but maybe it's better to go public. Page Builders are okay to help learn at first (I suppose) but I wouldnt actually publish it there. I suppose you could use the page builder to build the page, copy and paste its code into notepad and then upload it to a proper host. That I suppose would be okay.

Imagine that its author has met a person like you in the past, who told him not to use that builder... the author would have to learn HTML, CSS, Javascript - to spend a lot of time only do do the same work himself... and in the end, I'm almost sure, he would lose interest and wouldn't create his site at all. Don't you think it would be only worse?
Depeneds on the person really, who knows maybe they'll enjoy making a website themself. Wink

These three roles are almost mutually exclusive, I don't know a single person in this world that could combine all three in his mind - they are too different.
Hoo-boy, then you've obviously not spoken to Nick Wright (aka NickofTime or Princess Cake). He pretty much does all three. He's a nutter I tells ya!

I'd personally prefer seeing Kath's site on Piczo. It's nice that you created a site for her, but don't forget you will also have to teach her to update it (which is actually the same HTML, CSS, Javascript lessons + FTP usage ones).
Like I said a second ago, I suppose it'd be okay to build the page on the builder then upload it elsewhere. At any rate, Kat's PMed me, I'll teach her everything one on one via MSN. Who knows maybe I'll get something out of teaching her too. Tongue Has before.

Besides... no offense, but this new site looks very similar to TCB. It doesn't look original at all - same header, same footer, same menu... only colors and images have changed. That's not the best way to create a new site imho.
I'm a little rusty, Kat knew that. which is why when it comes to the secret site that you know about and TCB vX, I'm taking my time and going through long discussions with Nick Wright about it.

Lastly, I'm not gonna dignify Caspers PM with a proper response. I suppose it'd be better now to lock the thread, and/or merge it with the other one also.
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2007, 16:19 »
I am forced to do yet another "moderator reply". Please don't make me do it again, i hate it Sad :

Gary, you're a forum admin from much more time than me, so i guessed you should know that

1) PM stands for *Private* *Messages* . Alas, they are private and should not be quoted or even mentioned in public unless the other side agrees. Failing that condition, it's very impolite to use them for a purpose that could even look as a flame bait. If you have complaints and feel that you're being harassed or anything, feel free to ask the moderators, always via private messages: They are a very useful way to sort out problems without "tainting" the good mood and discussion flow of the whole forum, where other members couldnt care less about issues between single users. Oh, this also goes for Dagdamor Smile

2) Although i accept your suggestion, I think there is no need to close the thread, even if for the fact that people might still want to reply, now that the topic has widened to such extent: As you said in your first post, its not nice to be denied the chance to reply.

Over and out...
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Did he open up his eyes?
Did he try to touch my hand,
Or is my mind playing tricks on me?
Do you think he hears us cry?
Does he understand
We are here, by his side...
laguna sky
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2007, 09:02 »
well I don't know that anyone would care about what a slugabout like I would have to say, especially one not yet versed in web building and I hate to make this one of my first posts back into this site, but i feel that I should say something. I have read every single post on both of these subjects and I think that this is more than enough of a bring down, even for someone who is Goth.

Take a brief second and get off of your high horse ALM. It is great that you know so much about web building, just as I know so much about how to build a computer from base components and etch the lines in the motherboard, but think hard for a minute. Take a look back 20-25 years. Do you think that this is what these times would be like to people like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates or for that matter most of our parents. There was no internet back then, hell computers were just being created back in those days and to top it all off, what did the first computer do? It was nothing more than a glorified Type writer.

Talk to your parents and ask them what they would think about everyone fighting about something on the computer. Fighting with a person thousands of miles away from you. FIGHTING. Why to prove who can beat their chest harder? who can Build a better FAN BASED site? A site that brings others a little bit of joy.

Fogive me for thinking this way, but this is complete BullS**T. You are all fighting and arguing about something so pathetic and trivial. This is a fan site, MT2 is a fan site, TCB is a FAN site. it would not be cared about by anyone, if it wasn't for the fact that it offered a getaway for those who are sick of the same old thing every day. I come to places like this to relax and have a fun time, look at some interesting art, some good fan written stories, and chat with folks calmly about the things that are going on in the world and in the world of simpsons.

I'll wrap this up by simply saying this, "Stop the fighting. You are thousands of miles away from each other, if things like this piss you off so much, just stay away for a little while and let your mind take a rest. If you cant do that for a day or two then I do believe that you need to take some time off, or check your self into rehab."
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2007, 09:33 »
Damn it :/
I wonder why people ALWAYS choose high-heated topics to reply after the long absence.
Is this forum not unfriendly enough, or what?
Gary, please don't reply to Laguna. I nicely ask you. Prove that you can act like an admin Smile
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2007, 03:56 »
Many humble pardons Daggy.
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