Lisa, the Simpson!

I'm on the brink of buying a new computer, the ones I've got at the moment are alright but, are coming onto 6 years old so, its that time again. :P Ofcourse I'll wait till the january sales are on before buying anything but, I'm not the best at computer hardware and need some advice.

I've got a budget of at least ?1000, but I can stretch it to ?1500 if needs be, and I'm after the best of the best, and for reasons I cant explain I NEED to spend the entire amount (it cant be spent on anything besides computer bits).

I might be a bit mis-informed on computers, but I know that I should steer well clear of firms such as PC World and Comet. So I asked a bunch of friends and they said all sorts of words that sound fantastic but, mean very little... "Quad Core", "GeForce 9900", or something like that.

Anyways, I figure if I can get hold of all the parts seperately and build it up myself, I could create a very good system which, isnt designed for games or media... but designed for all of them combined. I searched online but, I honestly got lost and I dont know whats what. Any idea's?

Well, before I can provide further hints, a couple of questions... For what do you need your computer primarily (games, internet, graphics, video, ...), and why do you need to spend ?1000 or even ?1500, which is basically wasting your precious money? ;) Do you have the skills to build the computer yourselfs from all the various parts? If so, buying individual parts is definitely the way to go.

Generally speaking, both Intel and AMD make great CPUs, and it doesn't really matter if you use a ATI or nVidia card as well - both are powerful enough for virtually every purpose, so you can easily take the one that offers the best speed for the price. Don't even consider "if I buy the fastest one, my computer will last longer, even though I have to invest a lot more now" - this won't work, since new hardware will always be a lot faster than the old one, and you waste a huge amount of money this way. Calculate the price regarding the speed/capacity/..., and always buy the item that offers most for the money (i. e. the cheapest price per gigabyte for a hard drive).

Most likely, you won't use software that needs a quad-core CPU and a 64 bit operating system right now, and who knows what's standard in two or three years? Personally, I would recommend using Windows XP SP3, which needs less resources, leaving more for the applications you're running. This means you don't have to buy a top-of-the-line computer now and keep it for another six years. It's better to buy a mid-level one now for about half the price, and then buy another mid-level one in thee years again. That one will be faster than most high-end systems that you can buy today, without any doubt.

Instead of buying fast components, buy reliable ones. The ideal case doesn't produce much noise, consumes not very much energy, and won't produce countless bluescreens due to insufficient drivers for brand new hardware. Personally, I prefer AMD CPUs and ASUS mainboards, and I like nVidia graphics cards better, but this is based on personal experiences mainly, and others might suggest different brands. Western Digital seems to produce very silent hard drives at the moment, and I just love the Arctic Cooling cases and fans, since they are rather silent, but very affordable at the same time. Cherry keyboards and Logitech mice are the way to go, and my LG L227WT 22" TFT is pretty cool as well.

Another question, do want to buy a new computer with a new monitor and mouse and keyboard and so on or just a computer, I mean the case and what you all can fit in there?  :D

As Andreas already said there're two processor manufacturer AMD and Intel and two graphic-processor manufacturer ATi and nVidia and it's a real matter of taste what you choose. Today they're motherboards on market which fit well with AMD-processors and ATi-Graphiccards, for example this one "Gigabyte GA-MA78G-DS3H RS780G" or with Intel-Processors and nVidia-Graphiccards. But they all work also crisscross.

I think a good way to start were to go to the next magazine trader and to buy a magazine about computer, there are nearly always some tests, comparements of the performance or the cost-performance ratio or recommendations - here is one of them
http://www.matbe.com/articles/lire/1121/comparatif-de-100-processeurs/page24.php

A french website tested 100 CPUs (central processing unit) in many programms and some games.
A tip: In games (jeux) like F.E.A.R. you need at least 30 FPS (frames per second) for a "fluid cycle" but you should know that here they only test CPUs, in many games, but not all, the graphiccard is crucial for this "fluid cycle".

Don't know what to say next because there is so much to say...  :red:

Ahem... :P

As has been stated before ?1000 will buy an extremely good computer nowadays, io very much doubt you would need to spend anywhere near ?1500 unless you are an extreme gamer, or throwing your money away on a rip off PC like Sony.

Is your budget soly for PC components or anything PC related such as printer, camera, monitor ect. if so you could get a very good deal with all of the addons.

If looking for a Vista PC look for as much RAM as possible, bearing in mind that Vista 32 bit (Basic, Home Premium, Business, Ultimate 32) have a cap of 3gb of memory which can be properly used, you can have 4gb but its not all used efficiently. Only 64bit, Vista Ultimate 64 can properly address over 3Gb.

For graphics cards stay away from PCs which are onboard and/or which use technology such as Turbocache, it makes it sound fast but it can be a dire performance hit. Again personal preference is all yours but I have personally had less issues running nVidia lately, over ATi.

A good quality motherboard is also recommended, most commercially made PCs such as HP, Dell, Sony, Packard Bell ect use the cheap and nasty boards and these can often be unreliable.

A lot of people do not think of power. A good quality power supply is a must, a cheap PSU can have "dirty" power output, causing unreliability too, thus why commercial PCs are also notoriously bad compared to self build, they fit the cheapest possible in most cases. Stay away from PSUs from a company called Bestec at all costs, unless you love the smell of fried chips in the morning ;)

If music is important to you also invest in a seperate sound card. i have always found on board sound solutions to be muddy sounding, aka Realtek HD Audio... about as HD as my old black and white TV. A seperate soundcard, such as a creative audigy or X-Fi (although far from the best) can make such a difference to music and games. I find high notes sound much crisper. and gaming is so much more awesome, as you can often hear footsteps which can barely be (if even decoded) on onboard solutions.

Good quality hard drives are also a must too. Go for fastest drives possible. Also stay well clear from Maxtor, unless you want your data to be lost when it fails.... every maxtor drive I have owned has failed within 18 months, also a lot f issues with PCs fitted with maxtor too. Try to go for 2 hard drives if possible, you can backup data to a 2nd hard drive so if one fails then you have a copy on both. Use SATA hard drive now, not IDE (PATA).

I can recommend CCL, I have often used them for parts, they have been fantastic in the past, i had a faulty motherboard so they sent me replacement mobo + CPU and said I could keep the old mobo/CPU because they took a bit longer than normal. Fantastic, that CPU still ppumping in a machine i built for my sister :). Not saying they woud do that again but they have always been prompt to deliver and good prices too.

http://www.cclonline.com/ - they do some great pre-built machines aswell, you can also get them to build a custom machine aor you can order the parts to build yourself.

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/ is also a place i have used before, quite cheap and good delivery too.

www.pcworl.......cough... ok ok :P Expensive and I work there... so a bunch of useless %^&%$ ;) Although sometimes worth watching offers on site as i have been surprised sometimes.

Building a PC is not too hard, the only thing I see quite often is people mounting the motherboard directly onto the metal case backplate without using the risers...... good way to cause fireworks though ;)

Well, Empe has beat me to it, and i can wholeheartly agree with every word he wrote. Follow his advice :)

From my point, but i'm biased, a PC with handpicked hardware and home assembled will be always "dearer" to you than a premade build, and would give you more customization about what you want to do, not to mention that doing that, you can choose all quality components and there's not the risk of getting a 90% good PC with that 10% crappy hardware that brings it all down.
This, though has a big cost in money, and time (time before for choosing the components and time after for fine-tuning them, testing and fixing little glithes that may occur). The first you can cut down by knowing beforehand what do you ant to do with the PC. Of course, if you want an hardcore gamer machine, prepare to dish out big money on a regular basis just to stay up to date, but with a minimal advice from friends and some "coolheadedness" in the choice can spare you lots of dindin.
As for the time, i'm sure we can help you choose what it's best for you, and maybe even the places hwere to get them (maybe someone that makes assembling so you wont have to risk it, the first time building a pc is bound to have something screwed up :p ).

So, my suggestion is don't go for the premade builds that cost 500E... spend a little more but pick what you put into your pc.

Thanks a million for all the input guys :) Now, questions!

Andreas
If gaming computers are the best around, a gaming computer it is. No doubt it will almost certainly be used to play demanding online games, but also graphics software (for colouring pics), editing video's, sound programs such as eJay and programs for uploading guitar sounds, and very importantly, it will have a HD Sony camcorder along side it, so it needs enough harddrive space to hold well over 42 hours of HighDefinition footage.
(I kinda feel like the guy from VolksWagon who decieded "Lets build a 1000hp car!"  :red:)

I think the top of the list is games still. Would be nice to play something with full bloom on for once instead of the minimal settings.

Well, truth be told, its a grant which has been set aside for something as general as a 'PC'. I guess this means that I could in theory spend it on things like a good monitor and other devices. So, technicaly, it isnt really my money and since I've designated ?1000 towards a PC, I cant spend it on anything BUT a PC. So I'd rather get my money's worth and blow it all than have a little bit left over. :)

Heee... nope. :P I'd probably have posted another thread when I got to that stage!  :gigi: *is shot*
But in seriousness, I know a few handy people who've delt with hardware more than I have. My mate Gaffer has built his own once before so, he'll probably be of invaluable help.

Lisa M. Simpson
It could pay for everything but... the most important thing is the tower, so I'd rather spend it all on the tower, and then recycle the monitor, speaker system etc from my old computers since they're alright really.

Empethree and SimpReal
Its worth mentioning, if it costs me half the money, I'm getting Windows XP :D


Well, since I'm only in the preliminary stages of this purchase/build, I'll list the bits of interest:

CPU
AMD
  - QuadCore 64
Intel

OS
Windows XP - Service Pack 3

Graphics Cards
nVidia

(gunna have to cut this short, gotta go to uni, I'll complete this list later)


Anyway, thanks SO much for all the advice. I'm in your debt :)

Even with Windows XP, its worth gettign as much memory as posible, I run 3gb in this PC at the moment and it runs likea dream.

You can get 3gb of Ok quality memory (3x 1gb) for about ?45-?50 nowadays, memory is really cheap.

When choosing a motherboard avoid any board with less than 3 memory slots. Try and get a full size ATX board as you will have far more upgrade paths and also the components will be less cramped aiding better airflow, you do now want to box your graphics card in, it needs good cooling, and a PCI/PCI Express card next to it can cause it to get too hot, a common problem with commercial PCS which primarily use MicroATX. SLI is a good option to have as you can buy 2 identical graphics cards with a SLi Bridge and "combine" them to spread the laod. These can be used with a single card with excellent results however.

ATX
http://www.computerbox.hu/shop/images/msi%20K9A2%20CF-F.jpg

MicroATX
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/100312033/HP_Micro_ATX_Motherboard_5188_5465.jpg

I have used a number of different motheboards over the years. I have had the best luck with Abit, Asus, Epox and DFI Lanparty. My best board was the DFI Lanparty board, you pay a little bit more but its worth the investment.

Stay away from PC Chips, ECS (Elitegroup), Asrock and unless on a budget, MSI (Microstar). ECS and asrock boards are poor beyond belief, a lot of computer manufacturers use them because they are cheap as hell. I have may instability and compatibility issues with them both. Asrock generally tend to be cheaply manufacturered and MSI again dont often offer much in the way of options.

Wah, the only Asrock i had was a dream.. both agp and pci-e slots, super overclock, stability with less than 50E. :D But back in thread.

IMHO you have to be very skilled in this to assemble your own computer from scratch. People who earn doing that, at least assembled many computers in their life, they know common schemes, common incompatibility problems etc. If I would buy by PC from scratch, it would be much more possible that something would just refuse to work... I'm a programmer, not hardware builder :) so if you're not a professional in that area, like Marco or Empe, I would advise to rely on some knowing guy's opinion.

Thanks Carl, but I'm not sure what you mean by 'memory', and what the ATX card actualy does. :S
Though, I think I'll keep in mind the 'DFI Lanparty' motherboard you recommended. Unless ofcourse there is a better one availible at the moment/in the very near future by the same company.

Continuing from before, I'll put links to parts I find online that seem particularly appealing;

Likely;
OS
Windows XP Service Pack 3

CPU
AMD QuadCore

To be decided;
Graphics Cards
Sapphire - Radeon HD4870 X2 (http://www.itreviews.co.uk/hardware/h1714.htm) ??

Motherboard
DFI Lanparty - or later models


Still not sure on sound cards, processors, power units or anything else that might have slipped my mind.

[edit]
Opps! Two new posts!

Dagdamor
Your right. I've only ever touched the inside of a computer with a vacuum cleaner, and I've never taken one appart let alone build one. But... you've got to start somewhere. I'd rather start when its a 'free ride' than burning holes in my own pocket. ;) The money doesnt go towards a hardware specialist either, so... I'm just going to try my luck.
At the end of the day, if it blows up, it has the makings of a great YouTube video.  :gigi:

From a technical point of view, assembling a PC is not very hard, the main problem is the ability to find the errors that you might have made afterwards. ;) If you follow a few general rules and read some installation guides, keep your eyes open and double-check the positions of the cables and such, it should be an easy task. I basically learned everything on my own as well, and rarely had any help from someone who was physically with me. But if you know someone who can lend you a hand, I don't see why you shouldn't try to assemble your PC yourself. :)

Carl is right that a Micro-ATX board tends to be rather cramped, but if you can get one that doesn't lack essential features, such as a PCI-Express slot for the graphics card, or enough RAM (memory) slots, you can get one that is very cost-efficient. You're lucky that you can spend quite a bit of money from an "external" budget, so this can be invested in quality components indeed. BTW, "ATX" is a form factor of the mainboard, which basically sets some standards of the layout and such, so you can be sure it fits in your case etc. Micro-ATX boards are smaller than the regular ones, have less expansion card slots etc., but technically, they are essentially the same.

I don't have any experience with those DFI boards, but ASUS has never disappointed me so far, so you might take an ASUS board under consideration as well. 3 GB RAM sound very nice for a Windows XP system, however this might prevent the use of "Dual Channel" RAM access, which basically means that the computer can access two memory modules at the same time, which is obviously faster. For a better system performance, you can also buy two identical hard drives and set them up as a RAID-0 system, so the data is being accessed and distributed over two HDs, which should give you a notable performance boost when working with large files (videos and such in particular). It goes without saying that the data security is not improved, so make sure to buy an external HD as well where you can make backups on a regular base.

I browsed my favorite online shop and came up with a sample configuration, which might help you to make a decision:

Case: Arctic Cooling Silentium T1 ECO 80 Midi 550W ATX - 85 ?
CPU: AMD Phenom X4 9850 AM2+ Black Edition - 155 ?
CPU fan: Arctic Cooling Freezer Xtreme - 25 ?
Mainboard: ASUS M3N-HT Deluxe Mempipe 780a SLI AM2+ - 155 ?
RAM: OCZ 4096MB KIT PC2-8500U Fatal1ty CL7 - 75 ?
VGA: ASUS EN9800GTX+ DK TOP/HTDI/512M 512MB - 200 ?
HD: Western Digital Caviar Black 500GB SATA II - 2x 65 ?
DVD burner: LG Electronics GH22NS40 SATA - 30 ?
Card reader: RaidSonic Icy Box IB-861-B - 25 ?
Keyboard: Cherry G80-3000 - 50 ?
Mouse: Logitech G5 Laser Mouse - 40 ?
OS: MS Windows XP Professional SB 64Bit - 130 ?
22" TFT: LG Electronics L227WTP, 22" TFT, DVI/VGA - 240 ?
external HD: TrekStor DataStation maxi g.u 500GB USB - 60 ?

The sum of this configuration is 1400 ?, which is about ?1180. Without the screen and the external HD, the price is about ?925. I'd consider this a state-of-the-art machine that should be able to run virtually every software that is around. Obviously, I cannot guarantee that this configuration works perfectly, and I haven't read any reviews, but from the name and price range alone, they are surely better than anything that you can get in a pre-built system. :) I don't know from experience if the 64 Bit version of Windows XP would cause any problems (driver-related and such), but you can use more than some 3 GB RAM with it, so it might be an advantage.

The list is looking more like a list now :P

Thanks so much Andreas. :) After a chat with Marco, I've tweaked your list a little bit with more performance oriented parts. Some parts I still cant decide between, so I'll keep them both in the loop for now. I'm in no rush. :)

-priority-
PSU:
(Not sure, maybe Antec, Enermax, Chieftec, tagan (+700W) ?)

Case:
Antec NINEHUNDERED case

CPU:
Intel Quad Core (not sure of specific models)
AMD Phenom X4 9850 AM2+ Black Edition

CPU fan:
Arctic Cooling Freezer Xtreme

Mainboard:
ASUS M3N-HT Deluxe Mempipe 780a SLI AM2+

RAM:
OCZ 4096MB KIT PC2-8500U Fatal1ty CL7

VGA:
ATI 4870
ASUS EN9800GTX+ DK TOP/HTDI/512M 512MB

HD:
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 of 500GB

DVD burner:
LG Electronics GH22NS40 SATA

Card reader:
RaidSonic Icy Box IB-861-B

OS:
MS Windows XP Professional SB 64Bit

-less priority-
Keyboard:
Cherry G80-3000

Mouse:
Logitech G5 Laser Mouse

OS:
MS Windows XP Professional SB 64Bit

22" TFT:
CRT monitor
LG Electronics L227WTP, 22" TFT, DVI/VGA

external HD: TrekStor DataStation maxi g.u 500GB USB


I'll work out the prices when I get a complete list, and if I'm spending too much out of my own pocket (after it goes over ?1000), then I'll revert some parts to Andreas' "Default" list. :)

All I can say is, thanks so much for the help. I'd have been incredibly lost without the support!

Well, at least some of the items on my list are personal preferences, of course, the case and mainboard brand in particular. ;) I don't know much about graphics cards, but I think it is wise to choose an nVidia card if you have an nVidia chipset, and an ATI card might go better with an AMD chipset. If you decide to buy an Intel CPU, you obviously need another mainboard. The Western Digital HDs were chosen because of the noise level as well, but Seagate might be as silent as well these days. The RaidSonic card reader is pretty cool, since it also has four USB ports, a FireWire port, and DC outlets for external devices, such as USB HDs (saves you a separate power supply that clutters your desk). I bought that one for our astronomy club PC, since there are always several people who bring USB sticks, flash cards and such with their new photos and whatnot - quite often, all four USB ports are full during our meetings. ;)

I suggested the Seagate drive because i own two of them and they're really silent, performing and relatively cool (not as much as WD, but the increase in performance is definitely there).

As for the fact of an Nvidia card going better with Intel and viceversa, it was maybe true in the past but now there's not really an unwritten rule that tells to follow those schemes. it's true that AMD and Ati are now a single company, but they wouldn't hinder their own sales leaving incompatibility with most mobos out here. :) So get the one you read better reviews of.
Btw, one thign that you will have to get used to with either Ati and Nvidia is driver reinstalling. you'll have to become a lynx with that. Ati because theire not very good at making stable drivers for everything, and Nvidia cause they churn out a new driver almost every week...+

for mobo, Other than the always good Asus, take in consideration a DFI mainboard for Intel. It's a brand well known between gamers, and gamers are the most picky consumers a PC will have. :)

Monitors: very subjective. LG and Asus are good. HP is glossy, has a wonderful color reploduction BUT it reflects a lot so it might be unviewable with too much light around. I own a Samsung T220 and i love it too... i guess that on that price range you will have enough to go crazy with choice.

Oh, about OS.... forget about XP x64: lots of incompatibility, fewer drivers available, games not optimized and the performance increase is too slight if not unexistent. To use 64 bits, go for Vista (not home!! either Enterprise or Ultimate). XP Pro 32bit with SP3 is still the best OS to use for gaming (with Directx10 being still just a marketing scam... the real jump will be with DX11 and Windows Seven), even if it doesnt see all the 4GB of ram.

Since I never used XP x64, I cannot tell from experience, but what you say wouldn't surprise me. The 64 bit technology is rather new in the Windows world, and it is likely that software developers screwed it up in their initial release. So, 32 bit it is, even if you cannot use more than some 3.25 GB RAM in this case. :)