Lisa, the Simpson!

Meh, I thought this might come up...

For those of you who haven't heard, in California we voted on something called Proposition 8. If Prop 8 passed, it would overturn the supreme court's decision to legalize gay marriage in California. They legalized it back in May, but that didn't fly with some people - churches were then forced to either marry gay couples, or not receive funding from the state. So on November 4th we also voted on Prop 8 - and it passed. Gay marriage was banned once more, and now we have thousands of protesters rallying in the streets trying to nullify Prop 8.

Seems funny considering the vote was 52% in favor of the ban with 48% opposed... some people can't get it through their heads that in a Democracy, the majority rules.

G.H.
Not too impressive advantage (52% comparing to 48%)... makes you wonder why so many American people sees nothing bad in gay marriages... oh well, even Lisa wanted them to exist once. Still, 2% is not "majority" at all IMHO. *can't resist remembering Soviet Union and its elections/public votings always having 99,99% results - that's the majority! :D*

Anyway, if California was the only state and even there g.m. were banned again, I really doubt Obama will ever raise that question during his presidentship. He'd better think about Iraq...

Dagdamor
2% is not the majority? Really now?

Dictionary.com defines "majority" as:

1.    the greater part or number; the number larger than half the total (opposed to minority ): the majority of the population.
2.    a number of voters or votes, jurors, or others in agreement, constituting more than half of the total number.
3.    the amount by which the greater number, as of votes, surpasses the remainder (distinguished from plurality ).
4.    the party or faction with the majority vote: The Democratic party is the majority.

If the majority is the greater part of the number, and 52% is greater than 48%, is 52% not the majority?

G.H.
Nope, it's not. And life doesn't always go like dictionaries say ;) 2% is a very small value, it's on the boundary of statistical error. Such a small difference doesn't show the actual state of affairs - someone didn't vote, someone wasn't sure etc, and we have 2% difference. But with the same possibility the same difference could be on the opposing side... so although I don't support them, I can understand why they protest now.

Dagdamor
I don't think you understand the magnitude of this percentage - 2% looks small but in this case we're talking about thousands of voters. It's absurd to think that Prop 8 passed because someone, even a handful of people, didn't vote. The margin was by thousands of voters.

You really are a fucking moron arnt you? You want to deny people basic human rights just so you can feel good about keeping those uppity queers in their place. You are a despicable human being.The majority can go fuck itself and the court should force this through.

Vanguard20
Whoa, another hysteric reaction! How many times you get your face beaten daily with such an attitude/language? Calling someone a moron only because he believes in democracy is a bit too much IMHO. :D

G.H.
I didn't mean that these 2% is not a formal majority. It is. But that difference doesn't look convincing at all. Especially when we talk about something for minority, something that that majority doesn't have to deal with. Nobody forces normal men to marry each other is the Prop 8 gets nullified, right? Look at it from this point of view: the amount of people who likes guitars are less than amount of people who doesn't. Does this mean all guitars should be forbidden because the majority is indifferent to them?

Nope.

You have to see it from my point of view - I don't believe homosexuality is the right way to go. Not saying I want to discriminate against gay people, but I don't support their lifestyle. This is where the whole bigotry issue comes in, and this really ticks me off - I've had people calling me all sorts of terrible names (mostly after Prop 8 passed), people are comparing this to the civil rights movement of African Americans and women's rights. It's really nothing like that at all. People don't understand that for gays to be joined in a civil union, they get the exact same rights as two married people - this whole "legalize gay marriage" fight is only for the title of marriage.

Now you're asking well why not just let them have the title and be done with it? Well, because marriage is, like it or not, a religious ceremony that has been kept between a man and a woman for as long as our constitution has been in place. Look at it this way - if I applied for the NHS club at my school (National Honor Society), I would be rejected. Why? Because my GPA (grade point average) is too low to qualify for their standards. I could get upset and throw a fit that they're discriminating against people with a lower GPA, but in reality they aren't - those are just the standards you have to meet to participate in their club. As for marriage, it's the same thing - homosexuals don't meet the qualifications for a Christian ceremony (and before you think about denying its religious association, why then do you need a minister to marry two people?).

It's all a moot point anyway - I believe homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says it's wrong. It's pretty explicit about that too, so don't try to argue that point. Even if I was a minority out here I wouldn't change my views. And it's not discrimination either.

Vanguard20
Looks like we haven't learned anything, have we?

Why?



 
Yes the right to be treated as equals. Whats so wrong with that?





Wrong. Marriage is a LEGAL construct. Ask any lawyer.





Because its the law.



And how do you know the bible is right?

Someone who supports the corrupt government in Russia has no business lecturing anyone about democracy.

Vanguard20
You talking about me? I'm not supporting my government. I'm pretty sure that my government, as well as any other government, will happily live without my support ;) Re: democracy - I wasn't lecturing anything or anyone. I was talking about your silly behavior on LTS. And if it won't change soon, you will meet the Russian tyranny. Supported by Italian mafia, I hope :D
Seriously, stop acting like ten year old. Think before speaking, or quit. And watch your language, for God's sake.

Sorry but I must express what I thought of that quote....
:gigi:

Other than that I won't get involved, just bid my farewells to Vanguard as I'm off on a trip for a while tomorrow, :)
I just feel there is no point arguing over these things in this thread anyway, it WAS about the recent election, Obama won, the end ^_^ Which is kinda just the beginning :)

I didn't notice this before has no one has reported it.

I guess people is used to your namecalling and swearing by now and does not want to cause ruckus, but i've had it with you.
Go punch the walls or something, you're not welcome here.

Vanguard20
I'm not going to waste my time bickering with you, but rest assured, I will be praying for you. :)

Actually, I wanted to report it, but then again, why should I waste my time for a guy like this? I guess I can safely say nobody will miss him...

G.H.
To me, treating gays in a different way looks like, say, treating black people differently. When Hitler was ruling the Germany, jews couldn't have legal marriages - just like gays in U.S. now. Yes, marriage is a religious ceremony. But it's also an official thing too, for example in some places unmarried people cannot adopt kids. Social minorities should decide their fate themselves, not the whole society, because the rest of the society just wouldn't understand them and their needs. In this situation your Prop 8 result sounds like "Whoa, almost half of people here are gays or those who support them, but we still won't give them rights just because" which is kinda funny. ;) You say there are rules that everyone should respect. Okay, but Hitler also made those rules, and people had to respect them, or they got killed, the same was in U.S. before the Civil war. There was plenty of rules segregating people! We always should understand what kind of rules make sense and what not.

Dagdamor
It's really easy to make the comparison to racism, but you have to understand where there are differences. First of all, nowhere in the Bible does it say that being black is a sin. But it does say pretty clearly that homosexuality is a sin. Black people don't choose to be black - you're born black, white, hispanic, whatever you are. There's no real difference, what color your skin is isn't a sin, doesn't make you smart or dumb, it's just who your parents are. Homosexuals, on the other hand, choose to be gay - they choose to live in sin. And before you say "It's not a choice", consider the homosexuals who turned away from that and chose to start living a heterosexual lifestyle.

And I don't know how many times I have to tell you it's not segregation - I simply believe that marriage should be kept between a man and a woman, as it always has. Civil unions guarantee homosexuals the exact same rights as a heterosexual married couple - there is no "discrimination" or "segregation" here. They are equal in society as far as I'm concerned. This has nothing to do with Hitler or Nazi Germany, nothing at all. You seem to forget that Hitler rounded up Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, etc. and threw them into death camps. We aren't doing that here, and we never will.

Actually - you really do not choose your sexual orientation - it is in you, you are born with it! Your feelings, your hormones, your thoughts... all that is something you can NOT change without extreme force and mental damage. Isn?t that clear to you? Do you have a special sexual oriantation, a penchant, or shall I say, a fetish? You cannot control that, its how you are. If you like for example thin, black women with blond hair and you see at the beach, you will get this tingling - but when you see a fat guy, you surely will not get it. So this shows your sexual orientation. You cannot choose it.
I want to see you turn into a gay man and have a relation with one. You probably will not be able to do so without going crazy and feeling absolutely wrong - and that is the point of view of the poor homosexuals who are forced to live a life that is beyond their nature.
Get the point, bible-boy? ;) ;) ;)

@G.H.: I think we should clearly separate between legal and religious marriage in this case. While I agree with you that a priest might want to refuse a homosexual marriage due to his belief, there is no reason to forbid the legal marriage that is done by the state (also called "domestic partnership" or "registered partnership"), which will give a couple certain abilities, such as adopting a child, tax advantages etc.

G.H., I can understand your sight of view, although I cannot sanction it. Do you not guess that your mind is too unilateral. I have the feeling that you are too seriously with the bible. I know lots of those has its' entitlement, but there's also lots of what should be considered with care. Than every religion has a potential to be exploited for individual interests.
CargoOfDarkness is right if he says that sodomites can't choose, from his point of view, but from G.H.s' (conservative) point of view they choose against the bible, which is understandable in that case.
But now another question is raising, namely what's with cristian sodomites, I think you can't permit them to be christian because of their sodomite interests. Mercifulness and permissiveness which is also called catholicity are some of the essential elements of christian religion. Didn't Jesus says once something like: "The laws shouldn't be against humans but they should be pro humans" as far as I can remember on my religion tuition.

I'm not sure what all of you are trying to prove by pursuing this... I'm sure 99% of the people on this forum are anti-Christian and/or staunch liberals. But I'm not going to back down or change my point of view - I simply cannot condone homosexuality. It's stated in the Bible that it's wrong, and I believe that the Bible is the true Word of God.

Homosexuality is not natural, never has been, and never will be - in nature, we don't have the tools necessary to survive if everybody turned gay tomorrow. And when you say that being gay is genetic, stop and consider this: everyone has a specific sin they struggle with all their lives. For some it's alcohol or drugs, some people it's having a quick temper or a foul mouth, and for some people it's homosexuality. All of us are born into sin, and it's our duty in this life to fight it, whatever it is.

I'm not being a bigot or discriminatory here, but I guess none of you would take the time to see that.

I am not anti-Christian, but I would consider myself as being rather liberal indeed. And again, I beg you to see the difference - you said homosexuality is a sin, but I say that it's your belief/conviction/moral/opinion that homosexuality is a sin. While I have to agree that homosexuality is probably not what nature intended in the first place (being able to reproduce ourselves), I will not condemn it as long as no harm is done. This is what tolerance is all about.

Andreas
I tolerate people who are gay. I just don't tolerate homosexuality in itself. Do you see the difference?

You can call it my belief without fault, because I do believe it.

I kinda agree with GH about the gay marrage thing, I think you need to see a different perspective to it;

Marrage is a whole hearted, full on religious ceremony that has been passed on from generation to generation and has become so normal that, even athiests get married. The way it seems to me, christianity isnt completely fond of homosexuality, and therefore wont marry two gay people. And I dont think its fair to force a religion thats survived two thousand years to change its rules 'or else'.

I personaly think there should be two kinds of marrage... kinda a religious one and non-religious one, both of which comply with the system; i.e. the bonding of partners. That way, gay marrage is possible and wont upset the religions.

As for gay-religious people, maybe thats another topic.

Casper

This is what that protest was about IIRC; not to allow gays to make pompous marriage ceremonies but to give them social rights of married people. After all, if you need a ceremony, you always can find a special church (with gay priest, haha) and make everything there. About the Bible - hmm, yes I'm not a Christian, but know a bit about that book. I remember many places where it teaches us to be kind and tolerant, and help even our enemies, not to mention people with different gospels or beliefs. But I don't remember a single place where it directly says that homosexuality is wrong - IIRC, even Jehovah and Jesus were both unmarried, no? ;) And the whole world keeps being amazed at Catholic priests' unpleasant stories.

*tosses hat into the ring*

Here's my take: marriage is an outdated, archaic ceremony with few real repercussions in today's society. Take, for example, the recent (well, not so much anymore) divorce trends. If marriage is such a sacred institution, then why is it so easy to escape?

Personally, a commitment is a commitment no matter who authorizes it. It is up to you and the person who you make it with to uphold what you agree to, because, in the end, you are the only ones who have any say in the matter and can make it work.

I can only argue: if it makes them happy, what right does the government have to deny it?

I respect your opinion on the matter, GH. You are perfectly within your rights to believe and practice whatever you choose. It won't impact me in the end.

Dagdamor
First of all, Jehovah was not a person - Jehovah is one of the many names for God. Second of all, yes Jesus was unmarried. He's also the son of God. I don't think the argument "He never married, how could He understand?" is going to hold up to that.

The Bible does teach tolerance. We're all God's people. You, me, everyone on this forum, everyone under the sun. That includes gay people. That's why I'm completely tolerant of them. But am I tolerant of their lifestyle? No. God detests the sin, not the person, and wants every wayward son or daughter to return to Him. Once again, don't confuse my opposition to homosexuality with discrimination. I'm being fair and tolerant here.

I do.

Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

So you see, it's pretty clear. Don't take these verses the wrong way though - God doesn't hate gay people. God hates the sin - and to exist with God, you can't be willingly living in sin. You have to repent, turn away from your sin, and put your faith in Christ.

Since the discussion has steered from the original political based topid, i took the liberty of splitting the thread. Sorry for any confusion this might have brought :)

I don't know how it is handled in other countries, but this is the case in Germany. The actual marriage is performed by the register office, and this is the one that has the legal relevance. The religious marriage is optional and only counts in a churchly context. About one half of the protestant churches here allow a worship for homosexual couples as well, as long as it is clear that it can't be confused with the traditional marriage.

about the bible and the words of Christ.... , Only exist a law, live and love at our  brothers, nothing more, I am a active catholic (in special in the night of christmas in the streets ), and to me God exist (he can understand our heart and real desires), every human law, every word in a holy book, are words of humans , the church too, ... and we are't perfects...

the real force  and energy of a religion is the act and the help with other human,... NOt the words in a book... Jehovah and in special Jesus live in the face and in the spirit of the people that need help, in the childs with hungry and in war, in the blood of the innocent...

the words and the dogmas of a church or relegion are only words... the love can exist in any side, place or orientation, because this born in the heart,.... remember that the humans have rules to every act in this life, but with the evolution is neccesary apply changes.... if two spirits can found the love, is necesary live in peace.. because the future live in our hands, and the humans rules are only words in a document or book... ..."try find our own happiness"

 

Gustavo
(If I've understood you correctly), You're saying that God understands that we aren't perfect? Absolutely correct. But that doesn't mean He tells us that it's okay to be imperfect and that he'll let us into Heaven no matter what. We're commanded to follow Christ Jesus and take up our own crosses each day, doing our best to follow His commandments and walk in righteousness. Yes it's impossible to live without sin, but as long as we're making a genuine effort to turn away from it, He'll forgive our many failings without a second thought.

Are you saying here that you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God?

There's a theory that we "are" through our action, or to say it in another words - that we become humans or personalities only through our act... just to think about...

And I agree with Gustavo about

Yeah... The Bible is the word of God, but is not perfect because  the is a book write by humans...

The Bible was created under inspiration of God, so it is the right way and let her study and understanding of happiness, however, is a book written by humans ....

There are people who could not read or study the word of God ...

There are people who have another religion ...

There are people who DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD!

Even some people who can not read ...

but they are good people ... and for them the gates of heaven are open ...  Jesus in sacrifice for our sins, for everyone, for our salvation ... even if we do not believe in Him ...

The Bible is important in the West, Buddha in Asia, the mulsmanes follow the Koran .... All holy books are created under the inspiration of human goodness ... The bookks aren't perfects....   , maybe is hard of understand but since the sky is possible open the eyes, the humanity is a long story of sacrifice and love, we are a part of the soul of God...all are ONE!  :love:

The Creator left us just a word that we should respect and is engraved with fire in our souls ...

the word is:
Love ....

No need to know anything more ... with that word is enough .. love the force that keeps the Creation, and when love ceases to exist, our existence will disappear, because if the love does no exist , we are'nt humans....

Beautifully described, Gustavo. I fully agree with you.

*weeps*   :p

Flawlessly addressed Gustavo :)

Gustavo, I think you hit the mark. I'm fully agreeable with you. :!:

Gustavo
Touching, but it doesn't nullify the fact that the only way to life is through Christ - as Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

So you see, God does love everyone on this earth - we're all His creations, after all. But He is also a just God and a holy God, and he cannot co-exist with sin... that's why no one will inherit the kingdom of Heaven without the saving grace of Christ.

Following your words, I think that people who have  a bad life have a future in the hell ... (away from God )....  :/
and about the sin... ALL the humans in this planet live in sin... and by this motive the door of the paradise are closed to our eyes...

That seems unfair to me, God is love and gives a new opportunity if we are honest .... 

But these areas are beyond the power of our mind ... maybe heaven and hell are places created by the human culture... or perhaps they are real ...

Only the Creator knows our destiny ... (Alpha and Omega)

But I know that God is able to forgive everything and everyone .... :)


Post Data:


I have friends that Don't believe in Jesus or in God, but if in the human heart, they are excellent guys and good spirits (maybe better that me)...., open the eyes, the world is big and exist a lot of cultures.... centuries of history... The religion is necesary to the human soul, but  sadly the humans create walls and rules to all....

Gustavo
Yes, people's sin separates them from God. On their own, people have no hope of getting into Heaven - it is simply impossible for us to attain that level of righteousness. Even the most morally upright person on earth is like a filthy rag when compared to the holiness of the Lord - that's why God sent his only son, Jesus, to die on the cross and bridge a gap between himself and the sinners. That way anyone who repents of their sin and puts their faith in Christ will have that hope and promise of eternal life.

See above - "Even the most morally upright person on earth is like a filthy rag when compared to the holiness of the Lord".

you are right  ... but....

hmmm .. maybe ... But I think that the humans are more important than a "filthy rag ".. the humans are the center of the universe ... The human spirit has made  wonderful creations ... and we are very important, we are the only ones who can create  like God ... He has given us this gift ...

I think ...that the humans is free to make their own Decisions, the laws or books can not stop the white feelings and/or the dark and sweet desires of the heart...

Lisa and Gustavo: yeah  :red:

That's quite a read...

On the original subject, I'm in agreement with GH that christianity or any religion should be able to set their own rules. If they don't want gay marriage in their "club", then gay people should accept that. If they want some sort of ceremony which grants the same legal benefits as marriage, then they should take it to proper authorities and make sure there is one. Cutting the church's funding to pressure them into changing their rules? What a cheap shot... political correctness in society is a big joke.

As for everything else... well, Gustavo said it all too well. :X But still :P

I think christianity's got alot of good things to teach, and so does alot of other religions. I'm very open to the idea of God, but what I do hope is that he really is as good and loving as these religions teach us. Which ultimately means that I really hope that GH is wrong about him. In this entire thread (or anywhere else), I haven't seen one reasonable, redeeming word for why alot of people, supposedly, are going to burn when they clearly do not deserve it. I hope that God isn't ALL what we're taught, because I could never pledge allegiance to a being so cruel. By cruel I don't mean the fact that he administers trials to see if people's faith is strong and pure, but rather that some people were never given a chance to have faith in the first place. I don't believe what the bible says, but still I'd say my kind of faith is in always following the beliefs I've come to recognise as a positive force in the world (gain, no loss) and never sway off course, no matter what trials are thrown at me. I won't believe what the bible says, but that doesn't mean I can't see that it has some really good things to tell me.

I also spotted the whole "homosexuality isn't natural" thing, and that's both a yes and no. It occurs naturally, but it's certainly not what nature intended. Darwin condemns homosexuals, but society has built a protective veil for them. It's already said, yeah I know, but I'd like to move on to say: so what if it's not natural?! Nature can be horribly cruel, sometimes fighting nature is a really good thing. Not saying that homosexuality is either a good or bad thing in itself, but it works out better for those who are.

Each time I hear you go on about religion it all sounds so negative GH, like you take pleasure in stripping individual thoughts down by relying on ancient scriptures (rewritten even) that you would never admit that they could be wrong... you can't trust anything in this world, there's always error, human error, nature's seeming error. I've rethought my positions quite a bit in the last year or two. If you wanna be right, you have to doubt yourself sometimes.

I don't think you're one to be hateful, but still, sorry for pushing my own thoughts in here, I actually have much respect for you as a person, which is probably why I seem to combat you often. :confused:

Sigh... I gotta push the post button before I just decide to skip posting altogether again...

Miles
It's for this reason that a lot of people who believe in some kind of higher power condemn Christianity - they wonder why a God who is supposed to be loving would throw people into Hell? Well, first of all, He doesn't - we do it ourselves. We live because God has given us choice - to accept Him, or not. Some people do, some people don't. The point is, the people who never accept Christ as a payment for their sins and repent from their wrongdoing are still in sin when they die and go to be judged. And because God is holy, he cannot co-exist with sin - it's against his nature. So by our own acts we separate ourselves from God.

I'm not trying to be negative, nor do I take pleasure in stripping individual thoughts - what I'm trying to do is tell you how I see it. And how I see it, the majority of this forum haven't repented, or put their faith in Christ. People argue that "Well hey I'm a good person, why shouldn't I get into Heaven?" I hate to say it, but on the day of judgment, no one is going to argue their way into Heaven. Right from the minute they stand before the throne, they'll know that it wasn't good enough. God gave us the gift of His son as a full payment for our sins. The message of the Bible is not a negative one - it's powerfully uplifting. You have the chance to turn away from your sin right this minute.

The majority of people I find who willingly turn away from Christ do so for two reasons: pride and laziness. The prideful people say "Oh I'm a good person, why should I need a savior?" Well, you may be a good person, but you aren't a great person. And you certainly aren't a perfect person - which is why, again, you need Christ to take the payment for your sins. The other people simply procrastinate. They think "Hm, Jesus? Repentance? Faith? I'll get to it when I'm older." The truth is, nobody knows when they're going to die - tomorrow may be too late.

Again, I'm not trying to be negative - but you can't delude yourselves that no matter what you do, everything's going to be all hunky dory in the end. God is a just god as well as a loving god, and you will be judged on your choices in this life.

That's true, there is a lot of human error, and the Bible we read today is not the word for word translation of what was written roughly two-thousand years ago. But it has survived that long, and has yet to be proven wrong - beyond that, all you can do is take it on faith. I've seen things happen in my life that I simply can't label as chance, and on this and that you'll just have to trust me. :)

hmmm....G.H  you are right ^^   BUT ....

I think that everything is ethereal and superficial ... The Human try of talk in name of God.....or know the nature of God ... But we can not understand these truths ....   ... sadly this is real... sorry... because we are not god...

We just need to do is live a good life and make the best of us because the Creator is our Father... and a father is love with his creation ...  :)

 :star:  :lisa: Personally I can not hide some feelings that can be considered sin..  :lisa:  :star:  But I am happy with this...

Post data: maybe this lyrics of a nice song can explain this:

And time recedes every day
You can scour your soul but you won?t see
As we pass ever on and away
Toward some blank infinity

  :love:

Interesting, though I think I would rather be a 'filthy rag' and burn in hell than restrict myself to one opinion of life. Its up to god to decide if I'm ignorant or curious, I'm sure he'll understand.

I had a thought the other day... maybe humans are so good at surviving anihilation because we're good at hating each other and fighting one another. Maybe our only undoing will be our freindship? Kinda like Lisa's wish of 'World Peace' which ended up as planitary slavery :P

In this cause I want to say that according to some new cognitions, the altruism is better for the evolution as the egoism. :)