Lisa, the Simpson!

Since I see a lot of shit coming both from Russian, European and American news channels, and since I'm not indifferent to what happens, I've decided to make a short list of facts you might find interesting to know:

1. Georgia is not a part of United States; it's a separate independent country located in Europe.
2. Osetia is not a part of Georgia; it's a separate independent country, although unrecognized (just like Kosovo before claiming its independence).
3. Most of people living in Osetia are Russians, they speak Russian, share Russia culture and what's very important, officially have Russian citizenship.
4. There is no democracy in Georgia; US have nothing to "defend" there. Saakashvili is a typical tyrannic leader with depressed mass-media and opposition, lots of politic arrests, lots of his public opponents been strangely killed etc.
5. The war started when Georgian forces started to bomb people living in Tskhinval (a small boundary Osetian town). There were NO military forces in Tskhinval these days; they appeared later. The only valid reason for Saakashvili to start that war I see is: to make Osetia become a part of Georgia while Georgia has United States as their "friend".
6. The victims of Georgian bombing were mainly innocent people. The exact number of people died is still unknown, but the most correct number I've found are: about 2 thousand people died, about 30 thousand people became refugees.
7. The only reason for Russian military forces to enter Georgia was the protection of Osetian people; heck, there is no other way to stop bombs being launched from another country but to enter it!
8. After destroying the Georgian military base located in Gory's outskirts, Russian forces have stopped. We don't need Georgia, and Gory itself (a boundary Georgian town) was never attacked by us.
9. After making the first diplomatic steps to stop the war (thanks to Sarkosi), most of Russian forces returned to Russia.
10. Apparently, USA blames Russia for defending innocent people, since we didn't do much aside from that. :/

I know Serge... Many innocent people have died, children, women and the elderly, real lifes , so many ideas and so many feelings have been shattered forever  :( ... is a sad fact.

The political systems only create misery and death...
the wars , the  soldiers with a ice heart, all.. is a chaos...

Sad sad thing wars..... Trouble is with todays media, a lot of it is propoganda anyway which distorts the facts to suit the country they are broadcast in. Also posting exagerated facts and white lies sells more papers and advertising space and earns these news corps money.

No matter what happens innocent people suffer. And we shuld all spare a throught for innocent victims on both sides!

I doubt peace is something that will never be achieved in the world but all i know is that this place is a place where people come together. No matter where anyone is from on here we are all equals and its almost like there is no boundries or borders. I am proud to know and discuss things from all over he world, many different cultures.

We are a good family on here, and it gives us a chance to look beyond political barries at the people behind, and realise that good people are everywhere!

ok now I am rambling on now.

-Carl

Serge.

I'm going to maintain the level of relative peace in this thread before I go off on a political tirade just to ask you one question:

Are you serious? Do you really want a topic of political bashing between nations here? Because if you're just expressing your grief at the loss of Georgian lives, then I'll accept that and move on. But please clarify whether or not this topic was meant to instigate a flamewar between American and Russian members first.

Awww..? russian, Americans? What happens on this place? ... we are all humans and we are all equal ... can not understand the purpose of your question ...

Serge is sending datas from a conflict that is real ...

I'm a little out of touch with current events, but it looks like Serge is frustrated with the world's response to Russia's actions. I doubt he is intentionally trying to start a fight... the situation, from what I've read here, is a true human tragedy. Regardless of who's involved/at fault.
My sympathies go out to all the victims, their families and everyone affected by this... :(

GH is absolutely right here. Regardless of the intent, internet discussions on stuff like this always get ugly.

Okay, that?s enough...



And that?s where you are totally wrong: We aren?t!

Seconded.   And bear in mind that despite what is being said by either side (and it's not exclusively the US/Georgia against Russia anyway) the truth in these cases often lies somewhere in the middle.

I believe in human equality, philosophical and scientific facts.
We are all equal to limit share a same genetic code, and that our meat is composed of the same area as the universe, to such an extent that our atoms were atoms of the stars and seas ...

the humans can have good and bad feelings, being murderers or heros, but we share the same feelings and react in a uniform manner to stimuli ...

The differences between humans are created through interaction with the reality and personal experience, but they are only superficial, humanity, the entire universe is one .....

Wars and our lives are just a sigh in the vast story of the space, where our children  must lead the destiny ... It is impossible to deny ... We are all equal and we all have the same fate ...

think in that we are different is a primitive way of thinking based on mere observation and a direct insult to all human knowledge accumulated for thousands of years ...

G.H.
No, this topic does not imply a flamewar, unless you start one. I'm not sure why you are being so aggressive towards me, since I'm not attacking U.S. in my first post at all, I did that intentionally, to keep peace in the topic. All I wanted to say is... well, it's posted in my first post and there is nothing to add/to explain.

Osetian lives, please note that. Yes, it's horrible to know that so many innocent people have died. Georgia has lost people too, but almost all of them were military, and knowing that a soldier has died is not the same as knowing that an innocent man/woman has died. At least, that's not the same for me.

Besides, official casualties are incomparable between Georgia and Osetia... the first country has lost less than 300 lives, while the second one even officially lost 2 thousand people, and that number still can raise...

Such topics are destined to get ugly, of course... the subjects treated are not exactly nice themselves. But they're very serious so this thread has a reason to be and some controversy is bound to arise... it will be up to the matureness and judgement of the members to decide how to lead it, of course i'll still be keeping an eye out for unasked personal remarks, or direct offenses between users, but i guess this thread is allowed to go a bit "flamey".

As for what i think? I've been out of touch for a week and some so i don't know exactly how the situation has developed, but i tend to trust more the words from someone who lives near there than the words coming from national televisions. I think ugly things will spawn from this, and this regardless of the nations involved.
And i'm very curious to see the reaction of our dear president, super friend of both "champons of democracy" B. and P. ;)

Okay, I want to go there now... and distracted a bit from the topic.  :D

CCD!

I see that you belive in human equality and philosophy...
But when you belive in scientific facts you contradict your own words... because:

You can tell, that we are all based on the same atomic structure... but a cake is also based on the same ingredients - but there are sweet cakes and bitter cakes and sweeter cakes and less sweet cakes.  ;)
If you want the facts, you are wrong that we share a same genetic code - we ALL have a absolute unique genetic code - some of us even descend from different types of monkeys / apes. And you absolutely cannot tell me that chinese, african, european, native american and inuits have the same base DNA... where shall they get this from? Adam and Eve? *lol*
No, it is fact that different human evoultion lines developed parallel in the same time. Read about it on the internet or read a book or magazine.


Disagree - I do not share the same feelings like 7 billion other people. Sure, some people can have same feelings like love and friendship and hate... but they are all based on different experience and they are all unique. I mean, If everybody have the same feelings - than everybody would be hetero, gay and bi- and a-sexual at the same time, for example. That is... strange.

Everytime the poor children... They are the future... they are the hope... they will lead us... What else have those poor innocence to do?!? Leave them alone, man!  ;) ;) ;) We, the adult, have the power to change the world - WE have to learn... WE have to change... not our offsprings...

The last sentence is so confusing... I take a break here...

CargoOfDarkness
The last sentence was indeed a bit confusing, yeah ;)
I have no desire to peek into that philosophy subject, since I understand nothing in it, but I have to agree with Gustavo: people are people. Everywhere. We are the same, and at the same time we are different. But the reasons why we are the same are more important. Unless we want to die altogether in some sort of global war, we'd better not forget about that...

SimpReal
M.! M., not P.! Argle :D

I prefer to say "people are similar." :)

Told you i've been out of touch!  :D
Actually, i'd better politely and sneakily retire fro mthe thread now to avoid more gaffes ^_^;

/me does so

Dagdamor
Then please don't single us out as the only people disapproving of Russian actions... really, it's the whole world community. Please be more specific unless you're just lying to my face. And I'm inclined to believe the latter for two reasons.

First of all, the topic name is "US vs. Russia". Vs. Russia? What is this, a boxing match?

Secondly, you said "Apparently, USA blames Russia for defending innocent people, since we didn't do much aside from that. :/". You're completely making us sound like the bad guys here. Really, the majority of the world blames Russia for its actions, not just the United States. Again, next time, don't single us out.

I don't want this to devolve into a nationalistic flamewar, and I'm sure you don't either (or at least I would hope you don't). But I'm not going to sit idly by and let you make America out to be the bad guys here. We aren't.

hmmm.. maybe you are right  :)

ice cream to take a break in the discussion?  :p

My opinion:
Everyone is born equal, genetics aside. The largest contributing factor to who a person becomes is environment. That includes family, friends, and community on all levels.

That is why we can end up with an Albert Einstein or... say an Adolf Hitler from the same part of the world and relatively the same time. (example only!)

Ours views and choices are all affected by our own personal experiences.

People are dying. Arguing on the internet about who started it is a waste of time.

:)

G.H.
First, the topic says "Georgia vs. Osetia", and what you has quoted, is put within parenthesises, and followed by a question sign. This means that I'm not claiming anything about US, but asking that, suspecting that. If I'm wrong - I'd like to see a valid arguments proving that.

Second, no need to claim that all the world is blaming Russia. It's not so. Most of European countries preferred to take neutral side (which is quite smart), some support Russia, some Georgia. It's normal. No one supports US, for the simple reason: they weren't, at least officially, a part of the conflict. There is no need to support US, because nobody blames US in that conflict (it's obvious that it was solely Saakashvili's decision, without America involved) or any actions related to it. But I find it unfair that US started to slander our country on the official level. It was plain disgusting, what I heard both from Bush, McCain and even Obama.

Dagdamor
Your first post didn't exactly seem like a speculation.

Despite what you say, it wasn't only the U.S. who disapproved of Russia's bombing of Georgia. And I don't feel like wasting my valuable time on an argument with you, or another outbreak of political flaming (which is pointless), so I'll close on this note: I'm happy to live in a country where I can criticize the decisions of the government freely and not have to worry about being arrested, or worse. :)

G.H.
If you use the "Russia bombing Georgia" sentence again and again, then you either didn't read the first post or doesn't believe my words at all. In the whole conflict, there was only one episode which can be interpreted as "Russia bombing Georgia": when our aircraft destroyed the main radar in the Georgian military base. That's all. All other operations were performed by land forces. Do you know why it was so important to destroy that radar? Because Georgian army used it to aim their bombs at Tskhinval. Do you know which bombs were used by Georgian army? It were "Grad" ("Massacre") complexes, specially developed to raze cities to the ground. Do you want to know how Tskhinval looks now? You better find some photos and look.

I know there were rumors that Russia have used cassette bombs on Georgia (I wonder why not nuclear). But all of them turned out to be fake afterwards. Even European news stopped repeating that fake now, only US still do. I know there were rumors that Russian forces were close to Tbilisi (Georgia's capital). But Saakashvili, who said it first, later publicly admitted that it was his own tanks column. Again, after Saakashvili admitted his own mistake, European news stopped repeating it, but not US ones...

Thank you Captain Obvious.

That is actually a matter of debate and the reason for this sorry mess.


No shit Sherlock.


Source plox.


Yes thats the only way to do it. [/sarcasm]


O RLY?

Earlier, Russian jets bombed the Georgian city of Gori, killing and wounding civilians and destroying buildings.



http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Georgia-Russia-War-Civilians-Killed-And-Wounded-As-Bombers-Attack-Georgian-City-Of-Gori/Article/200808215075784?f=rss


Except, you know, the ones that are STILL THERE.


Fallicious statement is fallicious.

Vanguard20
Thank you.

Dagdamor
I know you want to have the last word in this, and you know that I won't allow you to get away without some kind of compromise. Russia bombed Georgia, accept it. Read the news story provided by Vanguard20.

I don't know why you chose to create this thread, as all other members said only bad things come of it. I'm not looking for absolution from you - all I want is for you to acknowledge that this was a poor move at best, to post something like this here. If you're so sure that your nation is in the right here, then why create a thread about it? Nobody was sitting around saying "DAMN THOSE ASSHOLE RUSSIANS FOR ATTACKING GEORGIA", so why bring the subject to LTS in the first place?

Vanguard20
Well, the only valid argument in your "post" was 8th. Everything else is pure trolling, so I'll answer only that one.
Oh wait, I already answered it? Right, why reading the whole topic if you can just quote the first post ;) Anyway:


Now, to prove me I'm wrong:
1. Show me a single publication telling the same shit ("Russia bombing Gory") made, say, after August 20th (yours is dated 12th).
2. Prove me that the photo posted in the beginning of the article has anything to do with Gory.
3. Prove me that the following line is true: "Earlier, Russian jets bombed the Georgian city of Gori, killing and wounding civilians and destroying buildings." Show me a single photo of Gory with, say, a single building with glasses in the windows been damaged. You won't find one, guess why.

The article says a bit of truth, too, I must admit:
Now when you admitted that there was Georgian artillery nearby Gory (i.e. nearby the boundary), try and think why it was there.

Vanguard20, seriously... pipe down.

You might have all the reasons in this world, but joining on this board just to post in a side thread like the starting poster was your drinking buddy, using offensive tones and witty remarks, and all of this as your only first post?

Change your way, immediately.

P.S.: the correct spelling is "fallacious". (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fallacious)

SimpReal
Spelling police... woohoo!

I know that was intended as a cheap shot, but please, don't make me go through all of your posts to point out each and every one of your spelling errors. It would take me all day.

Dagdamor
Is something bothering you about all this? Something that caused you to bring this to LTS? Because I can't think of any logical reason why you'd post this here. I'm waiting for your response on this.

I'm sorry, since when is commenting on obvious statements trolling? If anyone around here is trolling it is you, you gave this thread a loaded title intending to get a reaction from non-Russian members. Dont get pissy because people are calling you on it.


How about a video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b6yOFkyINs&feature=related



The article says a bit of truth, too, I must admit:



For defence?

G.H.
Because this story makes me angry and I thought the community of intelligent people whom I know and who knows me, is the best way to express my feelings and thoughts?

Dagdamor
So you expect me to give your nation sympathy because I know you? Don't make me laugh. I know you, Serge, but you don't represent the Russian nation to me. This is a community of many nations. Don't expect sympathy from us for your nation. If you want that, go to ISFF.

OK, I was just browing this site when I found this topic. I happen to get irritated when some Russians try to justify their countries actions in Georgia. I say some because I have many Russian friends who do not condone their countries actions in Georgia. The rest of the world can see Russias actions for what it is, international bullying. And what, pray tell was offensive about my post? Because I dont see it.

Vanguard20

Oh, using that chance I ask everyone from this forum to click on the link and watch that video!
It doesn't need any comments. Note the crowds on streets (you'll see them every time a town gets bombed, right?), note the buildings being perfectly safe, note that it's obviously not a town at all, but its outskirts instead. Note the fact that the video was made from several unrelated parts made by different people. Oh, and note the explosions! There is a plenty of them :D
This video is a shit. I don't know who can eat it and believe it.

You know what? I'm done.Youwanted evidence of Gori being bombed and I gave it you. You choose not to beleive it then that is your problem not mine.

Look, I know you love your country but there comes a time when one must accept that ones nation has made mistakes. Britian has blood on its hands in Iraq and I'm sure many Armerican members here would admit that their goverment arnt exactly angels either. Patriotisim is great, but there is a fine line between that and mindless nationalisim. Not only is it small minded it is also very dangerous. We all know what happens when nationalisim goes to far (Hitler). Patriotisim does not mean mindlessly agreeing with everything your country does, Dagdamor.

Aye... Theres never enough evidence is there. ;)

Unless the countries leaders release all the facts of their actions, its clear we'll never know the who,what or why...

Probably all the facts in this thread (and on the internet for that matter) are tainted, I mean, there are probably hundreds of YouTube videos arguing either way. And SkyNews? They have more over bloated 'breaking news' stories than I care to remember.


However, this thread does have purpose. Its interesting for me (who has little idea what is going on) to find out the opinions from both sides of the story. Its interesting, yet saddening to read.
Just, dont take anything personally. ;) 'Friendly Fire' on a forum is not good...

I am very glad to see that the majority of people keeps the neutral side. It's very good, that for most of us the main aspect of problem is death of people, not political battles and information war. I think that now nobody can know a real true situation... And it's very hard for me to watch, how politics  all over the world have reacted to an event. Only words. The World was trying to save silence, just repeat always  “Disengage armies”, which was impossible.

I can believe, that Russia was bombing Georgia (only where proofs), but I can't believe that Russia has attacked first. Do any people think, that our authorities couldn't expect the future relation of the world to Russia for an attack on the small country? Do any people think, that a small piece of ground can force to take us a similar step and to send the country in crisis from which we just began to leave? And do you think that Georgians want the war with country, which is much more strongly?  
And I can't understand, why the NATO military technology, began to be imported into Georgia after war when Georgia is not the ally, and why Ukraine has supported Georgia. Why the USA so carefully tried to support Georgia if it doesn't concern the conflict?  Was this war a good way to  distract attention from the American crisis before elections...

The inheirant issue with the 'human' component to this discussion (Yes, I still choose to call this thread a discussion.) is that nobody can ever know with 100% accuracy why exactly this happened. Its impossible to know someone enough to be able to claim true understanding of their actions.

Casper
You and I are on the same page it would seem... I completely agree with your last paragraph, specifically.

I see why this topic is rising so much controversy.  No offence Serge, but political issues should never be discussed on a forum like this one.  It arouses too much anger, specially because as someone already said "this is a multinational forum" .   I don't know the reason of why you came up with the idea of bringing this up, and I'm sure it wasn't to open such a pandoras box. Also, politics is a very controversial topic, people from different places might take it however they want it and besides we are all outside the problem "in a matter of speaking".  And this is for GH, Cargo of darkness and everyone involved on this discussion, and that icludes me since I'm typing this right now. 

We cannot be arguing and starting to slap each other with a white glove and also expect to have peace around the world.  Let us leave the controversies between Georgia and Osetia (Or U.S and Russia)  however you wan to call it, to be solved among themselves.  I'm pretty sure they will do for the best.   And the facts they give us on utube videos and for what is worth it, might not be entirely true. You all know how distorted news are given now days.

*edit.   So, let us forget about this topic and continue onto another topic should we?  Something easier and safer for us to discuss on, and lets avoid Religion and Politics.

I concur, Opus. For me this issue is mainly about the people involved directly with the conflict. My heart goes out to the victims, both living and dead, of this dispute and I hope for a peaceful and swift resolution... as naive as that sounds... I honestly heard of this for the first time in this thread.

I am with Opus and CC on this. I dont want to point fingers at any single country, all I can think of is the suffering of those people who died and those left behind.

I am glad that on the whole most of this thread has not degenerated into a slugfest.

Seeing as how this topic has calmed down a bit, I'll do my best to make a closing statement without lighting some people on fire again.

First of all, I agree with everything said by Vanguard20. He did not troll, despite what Serge said. He answered Serge's points with one sentence each, because one sentence was all that was needed. He provided the evidence asked for by Serge, and Serge chose not to accept it still. So you can consider me unconvinced of anything - this thread served little more purpose than to ignite the flames of nationalistic feelings, which as VG20 also pointed out, should be avoided.

I do consider myself somewhat of a patriot, but not a nationalist. Nationalism was already tried by fascist governments, and we ended up getting WWII. Anyone who mindlessly follows their government is a fool - I will be the first to admit that Bush made a mistake with Iraq, and is still making a mistake by staying there.

To those of you who supported neutrality in this thread, namely Roger, Gustavo, Mat, Omar, and Carl - thank you for reminding us that no matter how heated conflicts may get between nations, those at the heart of the conflict are people just like us. We were all created equal, and each one of us feels the same basic emotions as the other. My thoughts and prayers go out to those hurt by this conflict, regardless of who was at fault.

To Serge - I stand by my statements that I believe this was the wrong place for such a thread. At the very least it could have been done more diplomatically. But what's done is done, and now I can only say that I hope next time you'll realize that this is an international forum, and that all viewpoints must be considered before you bring up the issue of politics.

I for one am glad that attendance has picked up the last couple days. LTS has been quiet for long enough! :D

On topic: Yay! I'm Switzerland, everybody!

hmmm...

after of the discussions exist the reconciliations ... a good idea is to share a delicious cake ...  :)

with your permission I take a piece of cake...

(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/gustavoccd/earth_cake.jpg)
(this a special cake eh.. as our small forum)

HOMER: Mmmm... World Cake...

Looks delicious, CCD!
It's very detailed... I approve.
*takes a slice*

Peace, indeed.
Goodnight!

G.H.
Well, was VG20 a troll or not, let everyone decide. To me he was, because meaningless replies like "no shit", "source plox", "O RLY?", "its fallicious" etc aren't replies at all to me - those are just a silly way to shut up someone who's saying something you don't like or don't agree. If he had any valid arguments to respond, he'd post them. The only "valid" one was a link he just copied to the thread (without own comments), and I already replied (http://www.lisa-simpson.net/topic/717.msg16627#msg16627) to that link. If you didn't understand yet: that article was a silly fake, initially aired by Saakashvili and his propaganda, and stupidly repeated by western mass-media. Today, when the fact of it being a fake has opened widely, almost all mass-media stopped repeating it. You must be a fool to continue believing it when it has been proven to be a fake, when nobody else believes. The same applies to the "video" VG20 has linked; did you watch it? Do you realize that it's a video entitled "Gory being bombed" with NO BOMBING in it?

Now you try to hide behind all those big words about patriotism and nationalism. Be a patriot, be a nationalist if you like, I don't care, but the only thing I want from you here is to be an intellectual person. Blindly believing every shit your mass-media shows to you is not a patriotism, it's a stupidity. Like I said in the beginning of this thread, I see a lot of propaganda coming from our channels too. This doesn't mean I have to believe everything, right? What I posted were mere facts, without any political interpretation. And they were gathered not from TV, I assure you. Here, we have better sources for real facts rather than TV set. Which sources you have there in US - I don't know.

The thread did not get too much out of hand, but i ask both Dagdamor and Vg20 (and G.H. too) to try, as most as possible, to keep to a neutral ground for discussion and don't judge each others ideas personally, to avoid anger becoming the lead argument :\
I'm still wondering if to close this thread, all depends on how it will go on.

By the way, GH, if you go and read my post back, I never said VG20 was a troll, but i did think he was rude and offensive in his barging in acting all sarcastic all of a sudden, and i asked him to change his ways because such kind of attitude toward others is not healthy to the board. Especially if your first post on it is on that tone: i did it for him, to avoid him being "labeled" wrongly for all his permanence on this board.
I admit i made a mistake with the spelling jab, it was a low blow, and i apologized and explained myself to him in PM.

Now i hope the personal fights are over, and i hope that if the discussion goes on, it will steer clear from using name-calling or bad-mouthing to support opinions.

No, if I said 'go fuck yourself, you rooski bastard' that would be trolling. Saying 'no shit' in response to 'Georgia is not part of the USA' is not trolling.



That 'reply' did nothing to refute my comments. Other than to go 'Nuh uhh youre wrong'


First of, it wasnt called Gori being bombed. Second its 'Gori'. Third, you havent provided any proof to your claim that it was a fake report by Georgias leader.



First of all I'm British. Second, You have suceeded in missing my point entirely. You accuse me of beleiving everything the media tells me when you spout the same friggin garbage that Vladimir 'Stalin Lite' Putin has been spouting about Georgias 'genoside' against South Ossetia? And where the flying fuck are we in the West going to get or infomation from short of going to Georgia and asking them?

SimpReal
Yeah I got you and Serge mixed up in that post, I went back and fixed the name though.

Dagdamor
Give it a rest will you? You can't keep claiming everything is a fake just because you don't want to believe it.

I see that once again nobody tried to respect my pleas for keeping the tones of the discussion down.
And since this is turninig into Vanguard and GH versus Serge, and i see absolutely no "open-ness" from either side, just swearwords and angry remarks, i'm locking the thread down.

Vanguard20, you're officially warned, if you want to stay on this forum i don't care what are your political views, but change your tones and show politeness and respect, i ask this for the third time. The same goes for George Harrison (you're an older member, but it's not the first time i asked you to be less aggressive) and Dagdamor (Dag, you're even an admin, understand that the good mood of the forum should come before your personal "satisfaction").

For the rest there's mails , PMs, or completely different boards, thank you.

Vanguard20
Heck, you don't even know what's the name of our president... I'm out. This is the ignorance itself.
Don't try to prove me you're not a troll anymore, with your constant "fucks" you just did the opposite.

About proofs: Your own video, the one you linked, shows that the town wasn't bombed! What kind of proofs you need if you can't see even that? Where are the bodies, where are civilian victims you was talking about earlier? Where are traces of bombing? Where are traces of fire? How can I prove you that the town is safe if you watched the video showing that it's safe, and don't understand that only because the title says the opposite?
Maybe you need proofs that all those fakes are made by Georgian administration? Think a bit, who else would need them?

G.H.
Give it a rest will you? You can't keep claiming every fake a "truth" just because you want to believe it.


UPD: Sorry Marco, when I was posting this, the thread was still open. I will delete the reply if needed :/

OK since Marco cloed the last thread because there was too much swearing apparently. :rolleyes: Lets try to be civil this time.



Your President is Dimitri Medeyev (sp) and your Prime Minister is Vladimir Putin.
Excuse me for getting them mixed up. And constant fucks? I said fuck like once in that entire post!


It was showing the *aftermath* you think people just stand around with camcorders recording their city getting bombed?



 
 So debris-srewn streets arnt enogh proof that a city has been bombed?
OK, how about this?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDKVgG78VnI&feature=related





 
You have yet to prove that it was faked by Georgia.


I am rubber you are glue, everything you say bounces of me and sticks to you.

First time this has ever been done... seems this topic has really gone far.

I'm not opposed to being civil, but it seems like this whole ordeal has gone beyond that. I would've been content to leave things as they are, but... I have to say, Vanguard is right again. This whole thing is not staged. And Serge, you're the only member here who came out and openly said that the links provided were fake, so don't act like you have the backing of the entire board.

STOP IT.


If i see a single word about this again, i'll stop talking and start banning, i am dead tired.