Lisa, the Simpson!

We had similar topic in the past, but it was more about Liser than anything else...
Do we have vegetarians/vegans here? What do you know/think about it? Was you ever mocked for your beliefs, or maybe mocked someone else? ;)

I went for the third option. I've never had anything against vegetarianism, but I just couldnt do it myself. I dont feel bad for the countless cows or pigs that are slaughtered or anything like that, but at the same time I wouldnt enjoy watching it happen.  :confused:

I've heard my brothers say in the past and to some extent believed, that the animals would be killed anyway, whether one person doesnt eat the meat or not. So in that view, vegetarianism was reletively pointless.

Having grown up a lot more though, I've grown out of that 'vegetables are horrible' phase in life and realised some of the best foods I've eaten, are simple salad sandwiches with cheese and mayonase.... mmmmm....  :gigi:

[went kinda offtopic :P I wonder if a cow would kill you for food...]

I Live in Argentina. In this country if you don't eat 200 Kg of meat per day are rare  :p. But many years ago I travelled to the country and I see the farmers kill a cow. That was the most horrible and disgusting I saw in my life  :(. Since that day I was eating less meat.
I'm not vegetarian but I am in the process  :p, for this I vote the first option...

(sorry for my bad English)

"Gars no function meat well without"

Simply put.

Number 3. :P

*Thanks Dag for creating this thread, I love threads that encourage debate/opinions. :x

Yer, I finally decided to become a lacto-ovo vegetarian (means I still eat/drink dairy products and eggs) a few months ago. Reason being that I just don't want to feast on the remains of a dead animal while it's completely unnecessary. I can manage just fine without hurting an animal, so why not?
Alot of these animals are being tortured to death, and some of them are being raised in cramped up spaces, living in agony until the day they may finally go to rest. This is completely unacceptable, whether we actually need the meat to survive or not.
I'm not really extreme though, I envy people who can actually feel bad for the animals, I don't really "feel" that strongly about it, I just figured it's somehow right not to eat animals. Don't feel that it's inherently wrong... it's just nature. So eating meat isn't wrong, but it's not right either. I'd be alot more at peace if it wasn't cos we cause the animals unnecessary suffering. I respect people who eat meat as long as they can admit that there is a problem with the way the animals are treated. (I respect vegetarians more though :P)

As for veganism I think it's just overkill... stay away from any products that involves harming animals (including clothing), enjoy the rest. Milk cows and hens are usually being treated well in their lives, and it's a win-win situation. We provide the animals food and shelter from their natural predators, they reward us with food (and clothing!). Eggs doesn't involve taking a life or anything, for most of the industry they're unfertilized. If one's a vegan because they still think the animals are treated poorly, I guess that's alright, I'd rather just try making an effort to improve conditions for animals.

Hunting for the sake of preserving the biodiversity, like thinning out the number of a species in order to save them from starvation is fine with me, I think it's important for us to preserve our current ecosystems.

As for being mocked... few know or care that I am a vegetarian, my brother keeps going on about it though, how it's wrong to be a vegetarian and that eating meat is right. No arguments other than it's whimpy to not eat meat and manly to do so. Not really a big deal though, he mocks me for absolutely everything, I just filter him out and have a laugh when I can. ^-^

Casper
:P Well, being a vegetarian/vegan doesn't really restrict you from eating the same meals you've always had, there are substitutes in the form of quorn, tofu and soy products. Variations of quorn are heavenly, I can't get enough of that stuff. I didn't really change my diet much at all since I became a vegetarian, I eat the same meals as the rest of my family, just replacing the meat products.

Rain_Kid
Aww, well I hope your family will respect your choice if you ever decide to go full vegetarian. I wanted to become a vegetarian for well over a year before I made the transition, mostly because I assumed my family wouldn't support me. My mom does. Her husband, my brother and sister don't appear to see it though. ;/ So yer, I know it's harder than it may sound to some, but don't drop the idea... if not while living at home you can always switch over once you've moved out. (=

I'm not a vegetarian, but i understand their choice and i kind of admire them for it.

But i could never stop eating meat products... no matter what, but with good cooking and good choice, some meat can be a HEAVENLY dish... and don't forget i come from Italy, that even if it's a land full of problems and less than good habits, the cooking is still to be proud of :p
I won't talk about meat being necessary for the good health of a person, as i think it isn't.. there are many alternative products that give more or less the same. I'm just talking about the taste and enjoyment.

As for the talk about animals being "tortured" and killed: yes, i'm well aware of that too, i think aobut it from time to time... but i take it in a pretty simple way, call it egocentrical or simplistic in any way you want: simply, animals are part of the food chain, and man is a omnivorous creature (if not, we wouldn't have the conformation of teeth we have). From ages past, man has always had meat as the primary source of sustainment. Lately, with science and knowledge, this is changing a bit, and maybe in the future, if the world doesn't end first, we'll have a complete replacement for meat.
A little explanation to mark the differences...
Animals killed for food: it's sad and deprecable and it should be done making the animal suffer as little as possible (i don't know really how much of this is done), but it's still necessary for this world.
Animals killed for their fur/coats: Revolting, abominable and USELESS. totally useless. Especially because to keep the coat in good shapem the animal must often be practically skinned alive.
I'm for the first, not for the second.

I voted 3...I just CAN'T LIVE without a bacon butty or a chicken pizza...:P
However, I am not a fan of all meats, I could probably deal without beef, or lamb...I am usually very fussy about a lot of pork too (sausages for example, tend to have "expensive tastes" :red:),...

I could try to be a vegetarian, would probably last a week at the most till I crave meat again...
plus as already mentioned, it obviously won't stop the killing/slaughtering of animals
I'm no passionate animals rights activist but like most people, I'm no fan of animals being hurt/tortured/tested on for our sake etc...
but it's not something I tend to think about, or even want to think about when eating meat, would rather just enjoy the taste of a chicken chow mein rather than worry about where it came from X)

I was vegetarian for a few years when I was in school, essentially because the meat dishes they served in my school canteen were so horrible :P , but it ended up bleeding over into the rest of my life for a while too. Eventually gave up and am now a happy omnivore (though would still spend a day or two just living on veggies from time to time) :) .

I went for the second option. I'm not a vegetarian, in fact I eat more meat than veggies (I should've went for the third option), but I understand their points of view. Killing animals is cruel, I agree, but meh, circle of life.

I voted for 2nd option. I eat meat and personally could not live without it. BUt I understand very well the concerns of vegitarians. Veganism is something I however do not understand, eggs, milk ect can be obtained from the animals with no harm. Living without a nice Bacon sandwich with brown sauce is not an option for me.

Killing animals for sport, fur and general amusement is out of order and something I do not like at all. There is no positive excuse for it. Int the past animals were hunted for food and fur out of the need to survive. Now there is no reason to kill animals for the "fun" of hunting or for fur.

Vegans don't eat eggs and drink milk? o_O I'm sorry, I just didn't understand...

Anyway, I agree with you. Killing animals for fun is cruel. I do not like that one bit. They're living organisms, just like we are (I was gonna say "living animals just like we are" but it would sound kinda... I don't know, stupid). I'm being kinda hypocritical, because I don't like animals to be killed, but I do like to eat meat. x_x It's some sort of "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" thingy.

El_Barto
Yer, vegans typically stay away from any material derived from animals. So in addition to milk/eggs they also avoid wool, honey or any other animal products, even if it doesn't involve harming animals.
Damned if you don't eat meat? :P Vegetarian substitutes taste great, only problem is that some people may be intimidated by the fact that certain fast food or quick meals (fast food refers to crap) may get more limited, restaurants are often kinda sparse with the selection of vegetarian meals as well.

I've been eating meat for whole my life, so when I think of a vegetarian's diet I can only imagine a plate of tasteless maccaroni or a bowl of some vegetables and green leaves. I'd die of starvation if I had to limit myself to such food:-)
Yes, I know vegetarian cuisine can be pretty nutritious, and there are a lot of spices to add taste to any meal, but still, I can't imagine a meal without a good piece of meat;-)

I always felt sorry for the animals, so I'm transistioning over to being an ovo-lacto (one who still eats eggs, milk, cheese...) vegetarian.
I always thought that being one means not to weigh much and dhat would be a big problem cause I already weigh less than 91% of the world population. Now I know better about that.
The only other problem is that I'm 14 years old and live in a family with many meal-related diseases such as my sister who has big problems with coeliac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_disease) and if I was a vegetarian things ike soy etc. would make even more meal costs. But when I go to a boarding school next school year I will choose the vegetarian meal plan. And I already don't eat sausages anymore, I eat cheese instead.

And my parents don't even know yet about my decision.

I tried going vegetarian once. It lasted a day.

That was back when I was infatuated with Lisa, so her views about animal cruelty naturally spilled over into my life. But it just seemed like a lot of effort to keep going with something that was trivial in the sense that it didn't accomplish much; as Mat said:


I couldn't agree more. Even if one person stopped eating meat, that doesn't mean one less animal would be killed - instead it means that one more animal would die needlessly, instead of providing nourishment to someone. And eating meat is not something people do for entertainment; it contains protein and a variety of other things needed to keep human beings going.

I don't believe that people have the right to be excessively cruel to animals, but I do believe that killing them is a necessary evil in which humankind must take part in to survive. It's the way of the world.

I certainly respect the views of other people, so if someone decides to become a vegetarian, he has my admiration. Personally, I couldn't imagine to stop eating meat, though. Animals are eating meat as well, so I don't feel that it's "unnatural" or whatever, and if a lion kills a zebra, it's not more or less cruel than a human killing a cow. Obviously, there are some questionable methods of breeding animals, such as putting hens in cages for producing eggs, and I'm aware of the fact that I can't avoid eating those eggs - I can buy other eggs for baking a cake myself, but in a pre-produced cake, I'm sure only cage eggs are being used, for instance.

Think of what would happen if everyone was vegetarian.
And there are already many, so I think your points of view are wrong. Anyway I don't know how these people (vegs) are replacing the proteines and so on. There have to be pills ore something that include them, I hope.

Maléfix
Yer, thanks for pointing it the matter of quantity in vegetarianism... the less meat needed, the less animals will actually be bred... if an animal was never born, then the animal will never suffer... increased quantity of vegetarians = decreased quantity of animals at risk of living horrible lives, and in any case decreases the amount that are slaughtered. And that's really not the only point a vegetarian can make... there's nothing wrong with eating meat, but on the other hand saying it's a good thing, and needs to be done is just plain ignorant...
Animals eat other animals, because it's their nature, it's really not a choice... some animals eat plants, because it's their nature... not a choice. Man still falls back on their natural instincts, but as we all know what separates us from the animals is that we can choose. Choosing to eat meat is alright, it's just the way nature works, choosing not to eat meat is actually natural in the sense that anyone who does has evolved into it, one way or another. Arguing that eating meat is better than being a vegetarian means you've made your choice to just go with nature and don't think about it. Eating meat, but knowing how vegetarianism can be better means you see the cruelty of nature, but think it's gonna be too much of a change (in lifestyle), a change that you do not want. Vegetarianism means you don't like the thought of eating an animal, and it's really the same as the previous two options, you do what you feel like.
So, it's all just nature, and nothing is inherently wrong. The person him/herself decides what he/she feels. My personal opinion stands... I give less respect to those who think eating meat is all good, respect to those who admit the consequences, more respect to those who choose to not be part of the consequence.

And...

Pills? :P No way, the alternatives are made from fungus and soy proteins.

(http://www.quorn.se/PageComponents/NonStandard/Products/Images/ProductImages/135_thumb.jpg)
Mince meat substitute. Tastes... mince meat, except it's a pretty dry by itself since it's not juiced up with blood.

(http://www.quorn.se/PageComponents/NonStandard/Products/Images/ProductImages/134_thumb.jpg)
Fillet... tastes chicken!

(http://www.quorn.se/PageComponents/NonStandard/Products/Images/ProductImages/136_thumb.jpg)
Bits, great for stews, wok etc.

(http://www.quorn.se/PageComponents/NonStandard/Products/Images/ProductImages/130_thumb.jpg)
Burgers...

You get the idea x_x There are schnitzels, quorn/soy sausages, steaks, meatballs etc. etc. If I'd be swallowing pills and eating sallads I wouldn't be a vegetarian. ;p

OK I'm not informed well yet :D

Kasper

You raised an interesting question in my head from your post :)

Having peice of chicken on a plate on your right, and a peice of fillet on a plate on your left, which would you go for?

The chicken is already dead, and is the true original taste of chicken. Where as, the fillet is a chicken substitute, but is completely vegetarian.

Which would taste better? I havent had fillet before, but would like to try it now. Or is it the feeling of eating a dead animal that puts you off the most?

Sorry for all the questions :P

Casper
I'd go for the quorn fillet (fillet btw isn't exclusively veggie, it's what you call pieces of meat products without any bones, sorry don't know how often the word is used in english) whether I was a vegetarian or not. The quorn fillet actually doesn't taste 100% like a chicken fillet, but I like the taste of it better than chicken. If I wasn't a vegetarian, I probably would've gone for a regular hamburger instead of a quorn burger. I've only tried one kind of veggie burger so far, it's pretty dry... same for meat balls, unless you've got some sauce or lots of dressing for the burger, I'd prefer the meat. Other than that I've got no complaints... since I'm lacto-ovo vegetarian I've got access to any and all peripherals in my meals. (=
The chicken is already dead you say, I guess you could say I just want to be part of boycotting the industry. I'd have no problems eating meat at all, I've just chosen to do whatever little I can to avoid harming animals... and the more people who stop eating meat, the less will be produced. Say you and a group would decide to boycott the coffee industry (or anything that you feel is wrong) because the farmers are grossly underpaid and can hardly afford food. It's not like you'd go to the shops and buy coffee from any of the companies that buy their coffee cheap thinking "oh well, what's done is done, might as well save me those 50 cents and buy this one since it's here."
Like I said in a previous post, I envy those who actually feel real compassion from the animals, I just think I could do just as well without meat. Don't feel it if I don't see/know the animal. Can't feel for what I've never seen or met. And I'll also admit that I do take an EPA rich Omega 3 supplement (Eye-q (http://www.equazen.com/default.aspx?pid=23)) every day, fatty acids extracted from certain fish (at a certain time of the year as well x_x). I take it because I've always had trouble focusing, and since I started taking this half a year ago I've experienced alot of improvement in my ability to concentrate. There are Omega 3 supplements suitable for vegetarians, but this particular one is rich on EPA, and has shown good results in trials with people with neurological disorders (ADD and ADHD in particular. I've got asperger syndrome, though I was originally examined for A.D.D), because the bodies of people with such disorders have difficulties absorbing EPA. It does trouble me a bit that I keep taking this, but the reason I went vegetarian is because I didn't need to eat meat. I don't NEED this supplement either, which is why it troubles me, but I do want to take it for my own good... at least the fish oil is going to a good cause, and that there are no alternatives is what I think to accept my choice. x_x

Bit thorough answer, but there you go. :/

A thousand eyes! A twisted tail! Trapped forever! EPA! EPA!
sorry :D

Actually I feel something from the animals, but only since I thought about being a vegetarian a few weeks ago.
Today I'll ask my mother about those things in meat everyone needs - her job is nutricion (is that the right word for someone who tells you about diets and so on?) :D and then I'll take my decision.

Kasper
A good answer to all the questions. :) Thanks for that! Interesting about the fish oils, makes me think about the whole meat thing in general. We as humans have been brought up on eating meat because, as cave-men, we NEEDED it for survival. Now there are plenty of alternatives and we dont need true meat as much.

I've been tempted into vegeterianism before, but personaly, I wouldnt like to limit the amount of food I could taste in my life. Ofcourse I havent eaten every type of food availible, so I wouldnt know if I was missing out on the best meal of my life until I tried it. :)

(Would be ironic if quorn fillet was just that meal :P)

I'm now a vegetarian "officially" but my mom wants me to eat fish.
Gotta try that quorn fillet, smells very good if those guys on the web pages are right.
I feel so much better although I'm still ill... weird.

Maléfix
Yay ^_^ Makes sense that your mom wants you to eat fish if she's a nutritionist, it's a bit tough to get those fatty acids otherwise. I've got that covered though since I take my supplement.
Ill? In what way? :\

Casper
Probably not, most kind of meats could be the best the best meal of your life, depends on what you do with it really. :P If it's eaten by itself, I love it with a little bit of black pepper and some flakes of sea salt on top of it. ^-^

diseased, didn't know the other meanings of ill a minute ago :D

and thay soy stuff tastes great!

Not being a vegitarian myself I can say Quorn is fairly good. I liked it. it almost has the right texture and was fairly impressed by the taste. It all depends how they flavour it though, some stuff may not be as good as the stuff I have had.

If i had a choice between the chicken and the chicken flavoured Quorn I would pick the chicken, but I would probably polish off the Quorn too.... I'm a greedy piggeh! ;)

Quorn was initially not accepted by Vegitarian Society due to the use of battery hen eggs, but now does not use battery hens. Interesting article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn

And boy do some of the flavours of thier newer range sausages and burgers sound good!

http://www.quorn.co.uk/CMSPage.aspx?ssbid=65&prid=2

Empethree
x_x damn you! I haven't seen all of those in Sweden! At least not in the stores I've checked... better file complaints and make them order in some more stuff... or find a store specializing in vegetarian products. Those pages are crammed. x_X

The Q&A page looks a bit disappointing...
Q: In Which countries are Quorn products available?
A: Quorn products are currently available in the UK, USA, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium and The Netherlands.

Guess other countries gotta make do with what soy products... or if there are other companies that make food from processed fungus in those countries. :/

Hey the brits invented it so we get to keep the best stuff :P

I suppose its supply and demand, they need to introduce slowly into new countries in order not to loose money. Quorn has been around a long time in uk and is well established so can afford to bring out lots and lots of new products. May be worth contacting them directly asking why certain products not availiable. Although I have to say I have not seen most of those in local supermarkets either. My local supermarket (Sainsburys) has a Quorn section which has only some of the stuff, while a rival, Tesco has different stuff, so the full range is still not availiable unless you visit many different stores, something which on a weekly show not many will do.

Can see what happened in USA happening in other places. Some people trying to get quorn banned in USA saying it can cause allergies in some people... true... but then all foods can. I think its more rival american brands trying to get rid of the competion because they know its far better... and I would imagine also the fact that its not an American invention.

Sadly I think Marlow Foods hold the rights to make food using this fungus in many copuntries, so unless a similar fungus is found similar stuff may be unavailiable in certain contries. Also some contries have strict food testing procedures before stuff can be imported or manufactured in these countries, so may be some time before tests are passed before it can be sold.

One rather weird case has happened in Russia not long ago... a young couple of vegetarians (I have a feeling that they were vegans, though) has decided to raise their newborn girl as a vegetarian too. So they only fed her with vegetables. In some time girl started to feel bad, they showed her to the doctor and he diagnoses that because of the wrong nutrition, her bones, especially her spine, became fragile. :( I don't understand how that could have happened. Unless they were vegans and denied even milk products, baby should have received enough of proteins. Of course they should have consulted dietitian before making such decisions...

Dagdamor
Well you suspected that they were vegans, and they probably were. Raising a child on a vegetarian, especially vegan diet can be dangerous and I don't recommend it at all. As turned out in this case, the body didn't receive enough of the necessary proteins and anything else it needed to develop. And especially at this stage, when the child's bones are undergoing ossification, you have to give them a well-balanced and nutritious diet.

Too many people out there think that being vegetarian or vegan just means cutting certain products out of their life, such as meat, milk, eggs, etc. and not having to find a replacement for what is being lost from your diet.

Dagdamor
Isn't too uncommon... but it does make you wonder just how little people know about nutrition. ;| Cutting milk and meat is fine actually, soy/fungus products gives you the same things, and not even vegans should live without that. People shouldn't force their children to be vegetarian/vegan, but when their still infants (i.e before they can make any kind of decisions) it's the parents choice really, and it's not a difficult thing to manage. You're supposed to see a nutritionist to ensure your child gets the essential nutrition whether you're a vegetarian or not.  These people just got careless.

But imho, a bit like faith (but i dont want to start a discussion about this here), that isn't a thing for parents to decide: a parent hasn't got the right to "force" his/her child to grow up vegetarian or vegan since the start (even if vegetarian diet is on all sides more "healthy" than carnivore one), it must be a choice that matures inside each person with every passing day. They should, of course, not forbid it to the child either...

that of what Dagdamor talked about is just an example to the extreme of what could such a choice brign to, so i'm not taking it as a "thesis", but still i think man is born omnivore and that's the primal nature. Any forceful changes to this nature since birth is to be avoided, imho.

SimpReal
Being a vegetarian is hardly healthier than eating meat, it's just more common for a vegetarian to eat healthy. :p
I'm not sure if you misunderstood me or something, but I agree that it's not the parents choice (although I think it's nothing at all like faith. :|). The "omnivore nature" doesn't mean you have to eat meat, just that a human will accept meat... also by nature breast feeding is exclusively the source of nutrition for at least the first six months of infancy, no meat involved there. There are really no forceful changes applied, meat is one of the options available, not a requirement. When the child is old enough to give an answer, the parents should ask if he/she wants to eat meat and give them the option to try it out. Maybe he/she wants to keep on eating meat, maybe not, after that the person will have full say on when he/she wants to eat meat and when not to.

Miles
"When the child is old enough to give an answer, the parents should ask if he/she wants to eat meat"
I do not agree with you here, how can a child decide something on its own without any knowledge? A time must passed away before he or she can do it's choise. There must be a fixed age, which called also 'majority' ;)

Shadow Nait
o_O like I said, before the child can make any decisions, the parents are the ones to make all the decisions. If you mean that the child doesn't really know about the nature of his decision at say for example the age of 6, then it's probably a good idea to explain things. I'd personally bet a child raised in a vegetarian family would resent the idea of eating an animal, children pick up alot of things from conditions at home. Monkey see (or hear), monkey do... whether we like it or not, many ideals and attitudes of our families are indirectly/directly "forced" upon us.

Miles
"I'd personally bet a child raised in a vegetarian family would resent the idea of eating an animal..."
And that's the thing. Who will guarantee that growing up in vegs-family the child will get absolutely clear and unbiassed opinion? Any parents influencing their people with their own principles no matter is it 'good' (vegetarian in our case) or 'bad' (meat-eating). In your case you was growned in family of meat-eaters as I can remember. And I can suppose that the major motive for you to become a veg was the constant contemplation of your relatives gulping down all that meats and other 'bad' products. If you would not have such a 'bad' example right before your eyes day by day who can say that you'll interested ever in vegetarianism? Sounds strange I know. But we are considering the case of naturally unbiassed person, the hypothetical case. In reality all is much tangled.
If you would be growned in the children's home I think you wouldn't have such opportunity to choice with its fixed menu (I don't know yet maybe in european children's homes there are special menu for vegs exists?)