Lisa, the Simpson!

After the topics about relations between Lisa and her mom, i'd like to see whay you all think about the alchemy present between Lisa and her older bratty brother, Bart.

At first i think it might look like the usual "good child-bad child" rivalry with some sappy scenes throwed in just for drama/moral power, but there are imo countless things in almost every episode (relating to these two kids) that suggest that there is something much bigger and deeper in the relations of Lisa and Bart. When they are a team, when they fight, when they contrast or when they make up. Those scenes are always so powerful in my opinon... especially in the first seasons where the characters were still new to me.

In the end, what do you think they relationship is more leaning towards?

/me envies Bart in the second scene.

I think the whole relationship is mainly a brother and sister comradery, that even though they disagree and fight often, they have tender moments, too. And to find out which is the most powerful, all you have to do is look at what comes in the end. When Bart and Lisa get into a deep problem with one another, in the end they end up resolving things because of how they are related to each other... they're family, and with that blood relation comes a strong bond that is very, very hard to break :) The episode "Lisa on Ice" is a perfect example of how these ties always win out in the end. Even though they were deeply resentful of one another, they finally realized that they were brother and sister.

As adults I believe that Bart and Lisa will turn out like almost every set of kids that had problems with sibling rivalry. In the end, all things pass, and only love will last. They will be able to laugh about the good times they had, and even the times they squabbled will seem humourous to them :)

/me envies Bart in both scenes :red:

Lisa loves her bro very much, I'm sure. The second framegrab proves that :p But I'm not sure what Bart feels towards Lisa - not in the particular scene, but in general. I would like to think that he also loves her as a sister, but there are so little proofs... :(
Sometimes I think Lisa loves a boy that doesn't deserve her love.

P.S. Here was a topic about Lisa and Marge? How come I missed it? *scratches head*

Yes, this point is rather important... it has been shown many times that Lisa proves an honest affection towards her brother most of the times (ok ok, esxept for the "on a clear day..." episode), and she's often there to help him, save him, or help him make things better (Bart gets an F, Bart sells his soul).
I can't remember clearly the times Bart did the same for Lisa, if not for "making up" for an error like in the above episode where he was clearly at fault. So sometimes i wonder that this is not an even relationship: and the love Lisa proves for her brother tends to "cover up" for the lack of love coming from the other side.
If that makes any sense :p


Not one in specific but there was one where the thread went on about their relationship, let me check.

/me checks

Hey, You didn't even miss it :p http://www.lisa-simpson.net/topic/146.0

SimpReal
Dagdamor
I think the two of you may have a point. On one hand, we can see Bart and Lisa as both loving toward one another, but Lisa is the more mature one, so she knows when to show her affection and when to make things up. She's also a more caring person, which leads her into helping him... perhaps the reason why he doesn't show more care for Lisa is simply because he's too immature to yet realize what goes between them?

On the other, darker side, perhaps Bart doesn't care about Lisa at all. He's annoyed by his sister's superior intelligence and maturity and so plays childish pranks to make up for it, and is never really sorry about it... remember Bart vs. Australia? ("I'm good at fake apologies!") Is he faking an apology when he does so to Lisa? Or does he realize really what's going on?

There are reasons to support both points of view.

I'd say that there's good evidence that Bart cares about Lisa, I can think of a couple of good examples straight up:
In Separate Vocations Bart takes the blame for Lisa's theft of the teacher's editions, in this case he wasn't making up for anything.   Likewise, in 'Round Springfield when Bart uses his compensation money to buy Lisa the Bleeding Gums Murphy album, it's a rare selfless act from Bart so she must mean something to him!   There are other examples I'm sure.

janglewolf
Hm, true, and both cases are very good examples.
I like the second one especially, because in the first one Bart would look really nasty to anyone if he didn't help her sister that moment. :rolleyes: But in the 'Round Springfield... he didn't just help her sister, he did the thing Lisa needed the most (and I doubt she told him about that album before), so he made a very good guess.
I just wonder, how that "Sax on the Beach" album could get in the Android's Dungeon?

*cough* By the way, about the screenshots Marco posted in the first message...
I have a weird crazy idea concerning them, I can post it if you're not afraid. :twisted:

OK by me.
*janglewolf prepares himself to freak out...*  :p

Yes, please go ahead. I'm sure it'll provoke more discussion ;)

This better be good! *cracks banuckles*  :twisted:

*LOL* at Marco :D

Okay, hopefully it's not as crazy... first of all, look at the first screenshot and remember the scene. Bart isn't actually fighting with Lisa there, he's defending himself like he understands he did something bad and has to pay for that now. His behavior is not natural. The preceding moment, when Bart and Lisa were both pulling Lisa's creation, also looked strange to me. He couldn't let that thing go the same moment Lisa did. He threw it into the fireplace by purpose.

Now look at the second scene... he's smiling, his eyes are closed... that lucky ratboy is happy! He's on the cloud nine right now, don't you think so? He looks to me like someone who had an evil plan and it worked as expected. :twisted: Is it possible that everything that has happened in the episode, was a part of that plan? Is it possible that Bart did all that on purpose, making mess in Lisa's soul, passing her through anger, offence, hate, then worry and even remorse, just for that final make-up scene? This might sounds unbelievable, but remember the facts again: he destroys Lisa's creation, he runs away from home for no reason, he calls her sister to the rooftop, he resists to her claims a little bit more and then suddenly "gives up", making Lisa (and himself) so happy. :) He's an evil genius.

Well, maybe. But, I've never known Bart to have anything that well planned out. And even if he didn't plan it completely, you have to admit, he's not really smart enough to improvise it.

ametur_poet
Well yeah, the weak side of my theory is that Bart seems to be smarter than Lisa, at least smart enough to use her for his own purposes... :)

Also, your theory would defeat the purpose of the episode.

Wow. What a witty strategem!  The lil' fella sure has been reading Sun Tzu's Art of War;-) Though I doubt the creators really meant Bart to develop such a sinister and smart-ass plan, to say nothing it's too much fuss for such a kid as he is, this theory of yours is very interesting:-)

I agree, quite interesting... although, like ametur_poet suggested, I don't know if Bart would be cunning enough to pull off something as well planned out as that. Or outsmart Lisa like you're suggesting he did :p Also... if there was a deeper pleasure than making things up with his sister on his smile during that kiss, I'd say it'd go against what we know about Bart. He generally doesn't like Lisa, and is usually disgusted by her. For someone like me, being kissed by Lisa is being sent to cloud nine, however for him... I'm not so sure :confused: Still, it's an interesting possibility :)

It is an interesting theory. Bart often is been portraied as the usual Simpson, but also, he has cunning and intuition where he wants to have them (see: pranks, and the way to get out of trouble and put others in). Now, although i don't like the idea that he's just toying with Lisa's feelings even when they make up, it is a possblity. He could like the fact of being always the one "in charge" of the situation and so, to "rule" the game.

My god, Bart's an evil genius. :D

Dagdamor
Very interesting theory :D And I partially agree - he isn't simple boy, sometimes he shows fake feelings and of course he thinks about his own benefit even in sibling relations (remember when he was told about Lisa's future as a President, he knew she may be useful for him). But I must agree with ametur_poet, Bart is not so smart and consecutive to plan it day after day.

But he uses Lisa different way - to show others that he is cool. Very often he hurts Lisa acting that way - in "Secret war of Lisa Simpson", for example. He's afraid to show his real feelings, because others chilren's words are so important for him. Of course, it's kinda normal for 10-years old boy, and I'm so happy, when he is expressing his real deep feelings. I prefer to believe that it's real Bart - kind, vulnerable and loving brother.
But there are a lot of cruel moments in their relations, especially last season. Bart puts Lisa's baby pictures album under his foot to reach gas pedal, Bart says he loves his new pet snake more than Lisa - all these moment are so disappointing :/
These relations like that moment, when he broke his close relations to Marge in "Marge's son poisoning", after jokes from bullies. I think, Bart-Lisa relationship would be much stronger when he'll become older and more independent from other people opinions.

Yes, it certainly is an interesting theory and I can see where you're coming from but having re-watched the episode I really can't agree with it.   I think the crucial scene is that one on the roof.   It's a tribute to the writers that they didn't have Bart immediately show remorse when he hears Lisa crying.   Instead of going down that rather obvious route, when Lisa joins him on the roof, he's actually totally unapologetic.   It's only when Lisa tells him to look deep inside himself and he reluctantly does so, that he realises the terrible thing he has done.   As Bart talks himself through what he did that day you can see the moment that realisation hits him and you can see by the look on his face that he's genuinely upset.   It's a great combination of writing, animation and acting...and this was only season 2!   Incredible.
Besides, if the theory was correct, it would go against probably the most important theme of The Simpsons at that time, the idea that despite their differences, problems and even dysfunctionality, they stick together as a family and deep down they all love eachother.   And I just don't think Bart's that bad!  :bart:

Yes, Janglewolf and Brakusaetsya (most complex nick i ever spelt :P )'s reasonings are imho what ultimately is true. And so much better from a simple "feelingful" point of view. It was fun for a while to think about possible other insights, though :)

Hehe, I have to agree. :) Perhaps the idea of "smart Bart" is far beyond his possibilities, besides, one has to be a very selfish person to play such an evil game with his own sister, and Bart seems to be better than that, despite all his ugly behavior in the show. But still, it was interesting to look at the familiar scene from different point of view.

janglewolf
You know, there were several decent episodes in season 3, too... *runs*
Seriously talking, the episode Marco has taken screenshots from, was brilliant, I agree here again.
And the nearly last scene, when Homer said to Marge that they are great parents... *LOL* :D
He had the point, though.

brakusaetsya
Did I understand you right? Bart doesn't really love Lisa, he acts nicely towards her sometimes, but that's more an exception than a rule, especially in the recent seasons? That's very close to what I feel, because like I said, I don't trust Bart much. :( I still remember the "On A Clear Day" beginning, when he nearly killed Lisa.

Dagdamor
Nope, I've said quite opposite: he really loves her, I think, but he is so selfish and childish that he could do something really bad for her. Then he shows his real feelings, but one day it may happen too late...

brakusaetsya
Are you saying that one day maybe Bart will go too far and Lisa won't be able to forgive him? I've often felt this way about Bart, never really trusted his character, or liked it at all... mostly because of the things he does to Lisa :(

GeorgeHarrison
Lisa will forgive Bart everything. She can't hold grudge against anyone for more than 22 minutes. :)
What I'm more worrying about, is that one horrible day Lisa might simply not live long enough to see Bart's next remorse, considering things he does to her - some of them are plain dangerous! I'm not serious here of course, I believe this is not going to happen - the Simpsons is the sitcom show, and every character is important, but still... sometimes I have this weird feeling watching Bart's behavior. :(

Dagdamor
That's a pretty morbid thought to consider :eek: I'm sure it'll be accidental if he ever... kills her, but like you mentioned, it is not so far away considering what he did to her in "On A Clear Day...", though I still have to see that episode again, it's been awhile :confused:

But of course, like you've also said, the writers would never write a part in for her to... die, it's a comedy for crying out loud :p

GeorgeHarrison
Of course sitcom rules never let her die or terribly ruin her life. But it comes so damn close sometimes, and even kind and patient Lisa gets angry, so it could ruin their relationship, making a distance between grownups Bart & Lisa, if he wouldn't change his behaviour. Patience has its limits, I think even for Lisa unforgivable things exist. I don't think she would hate him all her life if he'll do something really terrible, but it may change their relations to formal family meetings one time every year.

That's another thing about it, future relationships: From the little we got to see about it, it seems that in the future Bart and Lisa are still having nice relations with each other, and if possible even less contrasting. That makes me hope that with time, both Bart and Lisa grow up to know themselves a bit better and leave the childish bickerings. :)

SimpReal
That's what lead me to make my point about "Maybe this is just a sibling rivalrly like every other family with brothers and sisters", usually they turn out all right when they're adults :) As long as one party isn't extremely abusive (which they usually aren't), the two usually grow up and forget about their problems.

I think, actually, they would both be able to live in peace if not for Bart. Lisa's general attitude is typically the peaceful one, Bart is usually the instigator in all these situations.

How do you all think, if Lisa would be first born child in Simpsons family instead of Bart and he would be two years younger, how would it change their personalities and relationship between each other and also with Homer? Maybe having one sweet obedient daughter he would be more kind to younger bad boy and never start to strangle anyone? Or opposite, he would change Lisa himself, making her more boyish?

That's a really interesting question, Bra!
Let's see... thinking about it, Lisa has the typical character of a first born. Caring, mature, sensitive, while Bart has all the traits of a second born. Envious, troublemaker, irresponsible and hyperactive. But still we can notice "joining points" in various episodes where Lisa's character deviates a bit into Bart-territory and viceversa.

If they had reversed roles, i think their respective characters would be even less balanced, maybe making for a more unstable relationship and possibly even a worse show altogether.
But maybe.. just maybe... you can never know. Lisa could have grown up more spoiled and Bart more responsible in respect. This is a very thoughtful issue.   :idea:  :lisa: :bart:

SimpReal
I've just imagined Lisa playing baseball with Homer at their yard, dunno why, and that's why I start thinking about it :)

But maybe 2 years age gap is not big enough to really change something. If Lisa would be much older then her brother, maybe she could be someone like big Maggie - less sensitive, more self-reliant and more boyish. I doubt that a little bit young age could stop Bart from hurting his sister, so even 2 years elder she would be suffering :( And of course I agree, that how goes it best with Bart as elder child, cause Lisa as middle child could show much more to spectators and be more sweet and adorable that in other age.

I think that Lisa is the way she is because of the situation she's had to grow up in, and everything she's been through. Serge helped me realize this throughout the span of our many chats, that if she had everything she needed or had some kind of advantage and didn't have to go through what she does, that she wouldn't be the caring, sensitive person she is. I think the reason why most people who are like Lisa are like this because of a strong sense of empathy; a feeling of "Hey, I know how you feel, been there done that, I understand" - it helps to have gone through suffering, if only just to know your fellow man better.

Would this change if Lisa was ten and Bart was eight? I think their personalities are mostly determined by the fact that Bart is a male Simpson ;) But you never know, if Lisa had been spoiled, I think perhaps things would have been different.

I think the "first child-second child" thing is more important than the "male-female" thing. So, if Lisa was the first child in the family, Marge and Homer would probably love her and indulge her more. That could spoil her character... like it happened with Bart, that is. Lisa always was growing up in the shadow of him, so she had to have some self-control, to be more self-dependent. The older sibling is always younger, and the younger sibling is always older. :) And yes, I think everything Lisa had to pass through, has influenced her character. If her childhood was more unclouded, she wouldn't be as strong.

Wasn't there an episode in which a gang of Nelson Muntz's friends were bullying Lisa?  I recall that Bart tried to help Lisa, but got beaten up by Nelson for his troubles.  I also remember another episode where Jimbo and his mates stole Lisa's saxophone, Bart saw Lisa crying, went up and put his arm round her and asked her what was wrong (of course Bart was then beaten up by Jimbo after it was revealled he hadn't been going to his karate lessons).

Bart often helps Lisa other than in trying to make up for doing her wrong, I think people don't notice as much because he can also be quite nasty to her at times, too

It doesn't always work like that, my sister is three year younger than me and I spent most of my life before I left home living in her shadow, she is certainly far more academically gifted than I am, but what often went unnoticed was the fact that she often relied on me to get her out of trouble when she was in a tight spot.  In the case of Bart and Lisa, Bart is of course the more immature of the two, but he's helped Lisa out of tight spots at times too.

starfish
Of course it's not something necessary - it depends on parents, I guess. If parents treat both children equally, they will grow up equally mature (that could lead to even worse kind of rivalry though - just something like that happens between Bart and Lisa). But if parents love the first child more, he/she will grow up more immature rather than the second one who would have to rely on him/herself only.

I agree about Bart wholeheartedly helping Lisa from time to time though. :) Those are care cases, but they usually are the most sweet moments in the show.

And that's remarkable their enmity is always - I mean always - is firstly initiated by Bart. And only after that inflamed lavish by Lisa's impatience, especially when Bart says something really offensive for her. For example the beginning of the episode "Future Drama" is the perfect evidence of that. Firstly Bart points to Comic Book Guy saying that is future Lisa' husband. It compels her to answer him that Crazy Cat Lady his future wife, that angers him strongly because of his perfectly the same sensitiveness that his sister have. The only problem, apparently - Bart's behaviour. Having counted upon a simple improvement of mood on account of humiliation of weaker (whom he considers as "vassal" in some way) he meets with a repulse that angers him more and that remark by Lisa that he's fallen in love with Hans Moleman definitively drives him out of his wits. And there's a huge set of such people in life. They would like to have a good time when it's boring and they try to joke, draw somehow the attention. But they can't do that in usual way and so their jokes have extremely offensive character, to touch more painfully as it possible and to seem because of that "cool". I have tested on myself that, think someone of forum mates have too.

To struggle with it possible only - as it results from Bart and Lisa's relations - counteracting rudeness or suffering all mockeries silently. However and Lisa from her part should not concern too seriously sneers, in no event it's impossible to show that sneers have cut you to the quick. Thus it is Lisa who acts like the initiator of application of force when Bart's sneers cut her to the heart, after all she is very sensitive though also kind. :lisa: And it is necessary to make a cheerful grimace and to try to laugh the matter off and to make it as more as possible sincerely and more inventively.

All people are divided on simply "peaceful" and that ones who constantly need something, those which internal conflict leads to extrude the negative emotions on associates - weaker or those who does not wish to give worthy repulse. And the most interesting that the "peaceful" not so peaceful actually. Simply they, so to say the "quieter" versions of the bullies. And in comparison to them they see and define themselves as "peaceful" ones. However and they can angrily joke for no particular reason, especially when appears on a place of "teasers". All depends only on internal model of behaviour which you have chosen for imitation (in your early childhood), and also from education. In Simpsons family typical representatives of such types of people are Lisa and Bart (groups of "peaceful" and "squabblers" accordingly), and also at more difficult and adult level - Marge and Homer. It's obvious that the majority of women are representatives of a peaceful tribe whereas the men are more agressive. Though it's not the rule by all means. ;)

Another examples of Bart's aggression - one of the Halloween's episodes when he tries to pierce Lisa with a poker and the series about the children's singer who has liked by Maggie and where Lisa has gained in struggle for remote control. :p

Yggdrasill
Nah, not always. :) I agree that Bart is the "guilty one" often, but sometimes Lisa has her part to blame, too. Unlike Bart, she loses control easier, and starts to fume. Most of the times she just hides in her room and blows her anger into her sax, but sometimes her ability to get agitated easily, leads to very bad consequences.

And about their inner peace - I disagree once again (if I understood you right of course ;)) Lisa is not a peaceful person, neither inside nor outside. Sometimes she can't live in peace even with herself. And you know what happens when she finds out that something is "going wrong" nearby. Even when everything is fine around, she still needs something to vent her energy out. Your definition of a "peaceful" person can be applied to Bart more. I hope that makes sense...

Yggdrasill
I am not sure that I understood you right completely, but I'll try to add something.

1) For Simpson kids both ways - counteracting and silent suffering are wrong. But, as their parents, they're not so good in discussing their problems with each other (even worse, due to their age), so they can't do nothing else. They just need to grow up to their own lifes (especially Bart, of course).
2)Yeah, usually Bart starts the quarrel, only in Tracey Ullman and early seasons they were almost equal. But I think such things as in your example are too childish for Lisa - it's like in kindergarten to use such sentences as who loves Homer more, who should marry Milhouse and who is warthog :\ She should react only if Bart said or done something really important and also to be more careful - for example, when she gave him her steroid-tomato, didn't she know it's a bad idea? I mean, when you have such brother or husband as Bart and Homer, you must be twice more careful and calm than normal person. Last seasons she sometimes acted veeery calm and maturely - like that moment she said him "I can read you like a book" or enforced him to leave parents alone in "Catch 'em...", but sometimes his stupid teasings still bother her for some reason :\

Hello all, just found this site and was reading through a few topics. I came across this one and it struck a chord.. sorry for bringing up an old topic. I am relitively new to the simpsons, only regularly started watching it shortly before the movie, as I work strange hours I rarely got to see it, and my parents hated it so didnt get to see it much when I was younger. I have had a really rough patch recently and found myself empethising with Lisa as I have been tormented like her.

My take on this is based on own experience. bart DOES deeply love Lisa, but under all the male bravado he finds it hard to show.  I am male myself and find it hard to show love to my sister. (she is the middle sibling I am the youngest and we have an older brother who was unruly like bart). My brother was mean to the both of us but deep down I know in a strange way he does care. I myself tend to make jokes when it comes to expressing my feelings to my sister as a "quick get out of jail free card" just to make things easier on myself. I think Bart does the same, he picks on her, makes fun of her and generally acts up in order to protect himself

How many boys and men do we know who have trouble expressing thier real feelings. In a way I think Bart is more insecure than Lisa is and needs to have the attention, which he lacks from Homer. I think this makes him act up to get that attension.

In acting up towards Lisa he is trying to steer some of that attension his way. I dont really think Bart is totally selfish but uses it a lot to get the attension he craves. He tends to know when he has gone to far and can show remorse.

I know he deeply loves her because of a couple of simple reasons. Some of his worst behavior tends to happen when he is around others, a macho bravado to impress others or get attension, or that he wants somethinkg Lisa has got. When you see them alone together, quite a lot of the time they are playing happily, laughing together or just getting on with things.

Also some of his worst behavior happens when angered, I have lost control towards my sister when younger a few times and have hert her emotionally. A defense of mine was to run away and feel bad about the situation on my own, rather than make the situation right.

Also in a few episodes it shows that when he does not really need to show he cares, he does.

In 7G06 - Moaning Lisa the following:


the abouve highlighted passage suggests to me that he is just very shy and uncomfortable about expressing his feelings.

Another prime example is 9F02 - Lisa the Bauty queen, when with no sneaky alterior motive of having to be nice to her, he just is.....


Bart seems to understand she needs his support more than ever. If he was truely nasty and didnt care, he would of only done this if he would of personally got something out of the situation.

Again thier love is shown in FABF07 - Milhouse Doesn't Live Here Anymore,they end up as best friends during this episode. When milhouse comes back and Lisa again feels rejected and lonely, Bart realises this in the end and "fixes" a monopoly game with cards which have him dong things for Lisa, the sweetest one shown is the card which she requests to use right away " 1 free hug". Again Bart probably will not gain anything out of this himself if he was nasty minded.

Anyway sorry for this long post.... but one final example is 7F24, Stark Raving Dad. He does not get Lisa a birthday present. She runs of crying into the house.. later he is shown looking a tad upset in his room, I expect he didnt really think that not bying a present would of been such a big deal. But as he realises. He and "Michael Jackson" come up with the famous song, although he does make up and offensive song to start with, MJ says we got to get to his true feelings.. and they do. Again the song has two phrases that mean a lot :)

Happy Birthday Lisa: :)


Again sorry for the long post :) just my 2 cents on the subjact, and sorry for my spelling, I am writing this on a TV which has the most cramped keyboard I have used :)

/me prints empethree's post and hangs it on his bedroom wall.

Guys, i'm so very surprised and happy to see how much there is to see on this topic, as imho it's one of the strongest "glue" that keeps the show together, and it's never underlooked. :)

A couple of screenshots from the "Bart vs. Thanksgiving" which could probably revive a good thread.

1. Bart is killing Lisa for glue.
2. Lisa is paying back for that (not even knowing it).

If someone knows what happens in Bart's head these moments, feel free to explain me. I give up to understand ;)